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Old 08-23-2017, 10:38 AM   #1
Impaler Spearguns
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reverse mechs... tell me why again?

there havent been any interesting posts lately except the ight post - so I am putting this up.
I am looking for a debate here and not a fight and I dont mean to insult anyone - but I gotta get this out,
ok - so I have been following along the evolution of the reverse mech and have jumped on the bandstretch bandwagon too.
I have gone from step to step like a ladder - but now I am inspecting the first few steps of the ladder and wondering if maybe I ended up in the wrong spot.

ok so enter the reverse mech into the high end wood gun market-
maybe 10 years ago it came out- but it was maybe 3 years ago since it became famous (right?)

anyway - neptonics and tin man(mako) came out with american reverse mechs
with "more band stretch" being promised
2"more stretch!
ok - i'm in

then I got them - and they are totally different from a standard mech.
the pull is stiff and the spring that locks the spear in is way weaker- the release is stiffer and generally not as smooth as a S mech.

so - to sum up my initial feelings - the mechs were stiff and not as nice as the S mechs - but for the extra 2"- I will deal with it.

along the way - I have seen another guy come onto a trip with me and he had a hatch - with a reverse mech - but he had a shaft where the fins were like 4"from the end of the spear- negating the extra pull.
I asked him about it and he had no clue.
it seems that people just skim through these posts and just absorb the main stuff and miss the nuance.
If you aren't going to get the right kind of spears- then a reverse mech isnt helping you at all and if you donthave the new roller mech - you have a stiffer - lower performing mech .

another case in point is the galling thing that Majd is consumed with. It sounds plausible but I kept wondering - why do so many old dudes I know have ancient spearguns and nobody ever noticed that they don't shoot good anymore? in all these years - nobody could figure out that basically any older speargun is now shooting worse and worse- due to sear galling? really?

I have been trying to reconcile these tow things when I came across a tidbit in one of Majd's posts- that galling is a reverse mech thing only.
IT IS A NON FACTOR FOR ANYONE WITHOUT A REV MECH!
the testing done that determined the galling issue was relating to reverse mechs and doesn't effect St mechs.
I realize galling will appear on St mechs - but it isn't a factor in reducing accuracy - as far as we know.
the geometry of a rev mech is such that friction is a much bigger factor than a St mech.
so let me illustrate the facts for the hundreds of people who will read this (not for the dozen who already know this stuff)
PROS
1 -you get 2 "of band stretch from a rev mech over a st mech
2- you get smaller profile which allows higher handle placement
this isn't actually true in my opinion -while certain brands have made smaller profile reverse mechs than most standard mechs - if you compare apples to apples like neptonics rev mech vs neptobnics St mech - they are the same profile
a standard mech could be made to be smaller at the back end to match the rev mech - just no one has tried
it looks to me that the St mech - with the trigger at back - would actually allow for higher handle placement- in that- the lever is at the back of the housing - so the housing wont be in the way.


CONS
1 - if you dont utilize the right spears - you get zero net gain in band stretch
2 - the pull isnt very smooth and ranges from tight and shitty - to just a little less smooth than a St mech.
3- not safe for high band loads (i personally wouldn't put more than 2 on one but i guess 3 is ok - (it's your front teeth)
certainly not capable of 4 or 5 bands
4 line releases are weird and often dont reset themselves
5 subject to galling and the loss of accuracy that comes with it.

there is a reason these things came out of the mediterranean- they are great for rear handle guns shooting skinny spears with 1 or 2 bands- for that they are ideal. They are evolving into being good for other applications as well. - but idk if we are there yet.

I can just see a bunch of people skimming through these posts thinking "i gotta get rid of my koah or whatever and get a gun with a rev mech.
problem is - since they dont really understand the whole thing - they will likely get the wrong spear or bands or whatever and negate any advantage they had.
.

on another note - to point out the new roller rev mech as the reference standard for rev mechs isnt fair either - since its the rollers that make the design work and if they work on a stiff mech to make it smooth- imagine what it would do to a mech that is already smooth!
Its the reverse mechs geometry that make it inferior and i predict it will be replaced soon with a standard mech with rollers or something completely new altogether.

I dont think it is a mystery that euro dudes love these mechs but for the US - maybe a gun with a standard mech that is 2"longer just makes more sense.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:53 AM   #2
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
there havent been any interesting posts lately except the ight post - so I am putting this up.
I am looking for a debate here and not a fight and I dont mean to insult anyone - but I gotta get this out,
ok - so I have been following along the evolution of the reverse mech and have jumped on the bandstretch bandwagon too.
I have gone from step to step like a ladder - but now I am inspecting the first few steps of the ladder and wondering if maybe I ended up in the wrong spot.

ok so enter the reverse mech into the high end wood gun market-
maybe 10 years ago it came out- but it was maybe 3 years ago since it became famous (right?)

anyway - neptonics and tin man(mako) came out with american reverse mechs
with "more band stretch" being promised
2"more stretch!
ok - i'm in

then I got them - and they are totally different from a standard mech.
the pull is stiff and the spring that locks the spear in is way weaker- the release is stiffer and generally not as smooth as a S mech.

so - to sum up my initial feelings - the mechs were stiff and not as nice as the S mechs - but for the extra 2"- I will deal with it.

along the way - I have seen another guy come onto a trip with me and he had a hatch - with a reverse mech - but he had a shaft where the fins were like 4"from the end of the spear- negating the extra pull.
I asked him about it and he had no clue.
it seems that people just skim through these posts and just absorb the main stuff and miss the nuance.
If you aren't going to get the right kind of spears- then a reverse mech isnt helping you at all and if you donthave the new roller mech - you have a stiffer - lower performing mech .

another case in point is the galling thing that Majd is consumed with. It sounds plausible but I kept wondering - why do so many old dudes I know have ancient spearguns and nobody ever noticed that they don't shoot good anymore? in all these years - nobody could figure out that basically any older speargun is now shooting worse and worse- due to sear galling? really?

I have been trying to reconcile these tow things when I came across a tidbit in one of Majd's posts- that galling is a reverse mech thing only.
IT IS A NON FACTOR FOR ANYONE WITHOUT A REV MECH!
the testing done that determined the galling issue was relating to reverse mechs and doesn't effect St mechs.
I realize galling will appear on St mechs - but it isn't a factor in reducing accuracy - as far as we know.
the geometry of a rev mech is such that friction is a much bigger factor than a St mech.
so let me illustrate the facts for the hundreds of people who will read this (not for the dozen who already know this stuff)
PROS
1 -you get 2 "of band stretch from a rev mech over a st mech
2- you get smaller profile which allows higher handle placement
this isn't actually true in my opinion -while certain brands have made smaller profile reverse mechs than most standard mechs - if you compare apples to apples like neptonics rev mech vs neptobnics St mech - they are the same profile
a standard mech could be made to be smaller at the back end to match the rev mech - just no one has tried
it looks to me that the St mech - with the trigger at back - would actually allow for higher handle placement- in that- the lever is at the back of the housing - so the housing wont be in the way.


CONS
1 - if you dont utilize the right spears - you get zero net gain in band stretch
2 - the pull isnt very smooth and ranges from tight and shitty - to just a little less smooth than a St mech.
3- not safe for high band loads (i personally wouldn't put more than 2 on one but i guess 3 is ok - (it's your front teeth)
certainly not capable of 4 or 5 bands
4 line releases are weird and often dont reset themselves
5 subject to galling and the loss of accuracy that comes with it.

there is a reason these things came out of the mediterranean- they are great for rear handle guns shooting skinny spears with 1 or 2 bands- for that they are ideal. They are evolving into being good for other applications as well. - but idk if we are there yet.

I can just see a bunch of people skimming through these posts thinking "i gotta get rid of my koah or whatever and get a gun with a rev mech.
problem is - since they dont really understand the whole thing - they will likely get the wrong spear or bands or whatever and negate any advantage they had.
.

on another note - to point out the new roller rev mech as the reference standard for rev mechs isnt fair either - since its the rollers that make the design work and if they work on a stiff mech to make it smooth- imagine what it would do to a mech that is already smooth!
Its the reverse mechs geometry that make it inferior and i predict it will be replaced soon with a standard mech with rollers or something completely new altogether.

I dont think it is a mystery that euro dudes love these mechs but for the US - maybe a gun with a standard mech that is 2"longer just makes more sense.
Been saying it for years . For a long time Q8 would say i was wrong when i would say the galling is becuse of poor geometry but he has figured it out now . I love is when someone uses a reverse mech and then puts a 4" butt on the gun to make it loadable.

A reverse mech only adds 2" or 4" or whatever of band stretch if the gun was built with a normal and you replace it with a reverse. Otherwise it is the overall leinth of the gun is the same . What a reverse dose do is move your hand forward kind making it a short midhandle .line relese is also a terible desgin feature .
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:05 AM   #3
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Another big thing I noticed that has led to even more popularity with it is that beginner gun builders now do not have to spend the extra time to rout out and customize the line release slot in a wood gun. So they take the easy way out and just throw in a reverse mech because it's a one piece application. They aren't using it because it's better, they're using it because they don't know what they're doing.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:08 AM   #4
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraken View Post
Another big thing I noticed that has led to even more popularity with it is that beginner gun builders now do not have to spend the extra time to rout out and customize the line release slot in a wood gun. So they take the easy way out and just throw in a reverse mech because it's a one piece application. They aren't using it because it's better, they're using it because they don't know what they're doing.
Exactly
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:26 AM   #5
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraken View Post
Another big thing I noticed that has led to even more popularity with it is that beginner gun builders now do not have to spend the extra time to rout out and customize the line release slot in a wood gun. So they take the easy way out and just throw in a reverse mech because it's a one piece application. They aren't using it because it's better, they're using it because they don't know what they're doing.
I call it working smarter not harder.

Apples and oranges.
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Old 08-23-2017, 12:36 PM   #6
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Jason,

The Abellan trigger is incredibly smooth and light. Not in any way tight. Doesn't fit the description of reverse mech's you grouped into one single category (minus the new double roller).

I agree that if you don't have the shaft fins to match the mech you are wasting your time and money. You're also throwing a longer shaft for no reason.

For the most part I see divers over and over who just don't know the equipment as well as the people discussing guns in this forum. A majority, I'd say over 75%, of guys I run into randomly diving (not just locally, everywhere) don't have the right shaft matched to their gun, don't tie their own bands, don't know what diameter bands they have, don't know what mech they have, etc.

We get caught up in these detailed discussions because we love it but most people just grab a "speargun" and go shoot a "fish." It doesn't go much further than that.
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Old 08-23-2017, 12:36 PM   #7
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

NOT knocking it (reverse mech) BUT I always have stayed with a winner IMO, the reef mech, its a workhorse !
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Old 08-23-2017, 12:58 PM   #8
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

I kind of like Reverse Mechs. I've had some guns with 3 Hot Bands out in the field with guys who dive 200+ days a year for the past 5 years fitted with Neptonics Reverse Mechs and have not had one issue with those mechs. That's a lot of shooting. Way more than your average or even active diver would do in 20 years. Some people like to wear running shoes. Some people like to wear sandals. Some like to wear Tevas. Some people like to own dogs.
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:13 PM   #9
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
PROS
1 -you get 2 "of band stretch from a rev mech over a st mech
2- you get smaller profile which allows higher handle placement
this isn't actually true in my opinion -while certain brands have made smaller profile reverse mechs than most standard mechs - if you compare apples to apples like neptonics rev mech vs neptobnics St mech - they are the same profile
a standard mech could be made to be smaller at the back end to match the rev mech - just no one has tried
it looks to me that the St mech - with the trigger at back - would actually allow for higher handle placement- in that- the lever is at the back of the housing - so the housing wont be in the way.


CONS
1 - if you dont utilize the right spears - you get zero net gain in band stretch
2 - the pull isnt very smooth and ranges from tight and shitty - to just a little less smooth than a St mech.
3- not safe for high band loads (i personally wouldn't put more than 2 on one but i guess 3 is ok - (it's your front teeth)
certainly not capable of 4 or 5 bands
4 line releases are weird and often dont reset themselves
5 subject to galling and the loss of accuracy that comes with it.
The main thing is that rev mech gives more band strech and at the same time higher handle. Mostly important on euro guns.
With rev mech you have same overall size euro gun with 10 cm more band stretch (or even more). It is totally different gun with same mobility.

You can load rev mech and it depends how long your mechs lever is. Longer lever smoother shooting - less force on trigger needed to shoot.

This stands for well done rev mechs.There are some tricks which differentiate good and bad rev mech.

Take a look on video. There is no LR on this simulation but I usually use ones which leans on lever from the side. You need how to instal it if you want them to go back with shaft. Side hole position is also very important. I have seen lots of bad rev mechs and also losts of bad instalations of good rev mechs.

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Last edited by labrax; 08-24-2017 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:06 PM   #10
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Been saying it for years . For a long time Q8 would say i was wrong when i would say the galling is becuse of poor geometry but he has figured it out now . I love is when someone uses a reverse mech and then puts a 4" butt on the gun to make it loadable.
Can you please point to one instance where I said that? Do you just make that stuff up ??? First you blame me for Enclosed Tracks ... now I am responsible for galling of Reverse Triggers??

For the record ... with Enclosed Tracks I merely pointed out that in testing, ET lost a ton of shaft velocity and that they did not improve accuracy ... at the time the theory was that with an ET you could push a thin shaft harder without losing accuracy because it eliminated shaft whip. My contribution to ET was that if the only reason you wanted an ET was to improve accuracy or add power to a thin shaft then it was wrong and there were other ways to get what you wanted. I never came up with ET, I just came out with data that I discovered while testing and decided to share it.

As for reverse triggers ... I did not invent reverse triggers ... but in testing again I discovered a problem. This all started during my testing of a Pathos gun several years ago. I had no clue that Reverse Triggers even had any problems, but I did notice a problem with the Pathos trigger. When I checked the sears, I found that there was indeed poor geometry (sorry Phil ... before you ever even mentioned it) that was causing the shaft to hit the sear on exit and thus damaging it. But after further research ... I found that reverse triggers had an inherent problem where they would suffer galling. I think I was the first to bring up the word "galling or scratching" on this or any other forum. Until then I had no clue there even was a problem and never heard of it. I am pretty sure none of the forum members here also realized there was a problem (at least I never read about it). Once I did discover the problem, I noticed that slamming the shaft into the mech was also damaging the shaft sear ... this was even more of a problem with high carbon shafts that were becoming more common. I then set about trying to fix the problem. I bought every single reverse trigger I could get my hands on ... tested them ... and discovered a ton of issues I had not even noticed or even heard of. Many people shoot guns and think they shoot great ... but in the pool I noticed that although a gun might seem to be shooting well ... in the pool on targets ... it was not grouping well or at least there was a measurable drop in accuracy. I do understand that some of you don't care about high accuracy as maybe you shoot large fish at close range ... but I value accuracy and decided this was a problem that needed to be fixed. So please stop this crap as me being the cause of the problem ... I merely documented the problem and decided to do something to solve it! But since you mentioned the problem of geometry, that is absolutely false that a reverse trigger design is fundementally flawed due to geometry. On the Pathos trigger ... yes there was a geometry problem ... but there are many reverse triggers with no geometry problems. OB trigger, C4 trigger ... Abellan trigger. The problem is a MATERIAL SCIENCE problem ... stainless steel on the micron level suffers from a phenomenon where the two metals will want to cold weld. Fix that and you fixed the problem.

It is ironic that after being threatened several times with lawsuits by different manufacturers for giving "false" information about reverse triggers ... now I am to blame for problems of reverse triggers! Give me a break!
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:19 PM   #11
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

as someone who hasn't built my own gun yet, I'd just like to say that I totally enjoy reading threads like this. carry on gents.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:35 PM   #12
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Has anyone tried DLC (diamond like carbon) coating the trigger sears? Galling happens more likely when the two friction materials are the same material or similar hardness. DLC raises the hardness of the surface to above 90 Rockwell C, lowers the coefficient of friction to 0.1, and doesn't corrode. It costs about $1500 minimum for a batch but you can probably fit like 100 sears into a batch.

Most of the black Panerai watches use this coating.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:40 PM   #13
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

https://youtu.be/wfx8bQIqf40
https://youtu.be/XDfYVjkVf3g

https://youtu.be/pvalWMEhVbI
https://youtu.be/nB6MR0m2hio
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:56 PM   #14
phil herranen
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Can you please point to one instance where I said that? Do you just make that stuff up ??? First you blame me for Enclosed Tracks ... now I am responsible for galling of Reverse Triggers??

For the record ... with Enclosed Tracks I merely pointed out that in testing, ET lost a ton of shaft velocity and that they did not improve accuracy ... at the time the theory was that with an ET you could push a thin shaft harder without losing accuracy because it eliminated shaft whip. My contribution to ET was that if the only reason you wanted an ET was to improve accuracy or add power to a thin shaft then it was wrong and there were other ways to get what you wanted. I never came up with ET, I just came out with data that I discovered while testing and decided to share it.

As for reverse triggers ... I did not invent reverse triggers ... but in testing again I discovered a problem. This all started during my testing of a Pathos gun several years ago. I had no clue that Reverse Triggers even had any problems, but I did notice a problem with the Pathos trigger. When I checked the sears, I found that there was indeed poor geometry (sorry Phil ... before you ever even mentioned it) that was causing the shaft to hit the sear on exit and thus damaging it. But after further research ... I found that reverse triggers had an inherent problem where they would suffer galling. I think I was the first to bring up the word "galling or scratching" on this or any other forum. Until then I had no clue there even was a problem and never heard of it. I am pretty sure none of the forum members here also realized there was a problem (at least I never read about it). Once I did discover the problem, I noticed that slamming the shaft into the mech was also damaging the shaft sear ... this was even more of a problem with high carbon shafts that were becoming more common. I then set about trying to fix the problem. I bought every single reverse trigger I could get my hands on ... tested them ... and discovered a ton of issues I had not even noticed or even heard of. Many people shoot guns and think they shoot great ... but in the pool I noticed that although a gun might seem to be shooting well ... in the pool on targets ... it was not grouping well or at least there was a measurable drop in accuracy. I do understand that some of you don't care about high accuracy as maybe you shoot large fish at close range ... but I value accuracy and decided this was a problem that needed to be fixed. So please stop this crap as me being the cause of the problem ... I merely documented the problem and decided to do something to solve it! But since you mentioned the problem of geometry, that is absolutely false that a reverse trigger design is fundementally flawed due to geometry. On the Pathos trigger ... yes there was a geometry problem ... but there are many reverse triggers with no geometry problems. OB trigger, C4 trigger ... Abellan trigger. The problem is a MATERIAL SCIENCE problem ... stainless steel on the micron level suffers from a phenomenon where the two metals will want to cold weld. Fix that and you fixed the problem.

It is ironic that after being threatened several times with lawsuits by different manufacturers for giving "false" information about reverse triggers ... now I am to blame for problems of reverse triggers! Give me a break!
I can go find it if you really want me too back when you first started to notice galling I said it was due to poor geometry on reverse triggers , and you said it wasn't , as for et you can go back and check that too I allready quoted you on one of the times when I brought it up the first time , I said that you pushing them for years is a big reason why so many people ask for them now and have to be educated away from them , I bet I can find hundreds of post from you where you say they increase accuracy .

You do some great testing, but time after time you think you have it figured out and refuse to listen to anyone and then test some more and go 180 in your opinion. I've seen it happen soo many times now that every time you find something "new" I just wait for you to reverse it a year or two later
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:21 PM   #15
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
there havent been any interesting posts lately except the ight post - so I am putting this up.
I am looking for a debate here and not a fight and I dont mean to insult anyone - but I gotta get this out,
ok - so I have been following along the evolution of the reverse mech and have jumped on the bandstretch bandwagon too.
I have gone from step to step like a ladder - but now I am inspecting the first few steps of the ladder and wondering if maybe I ended up in the wrong spot.

ok so enter the reverse mech into the high end wood gun market-
maybe 10 years ago it came out- but it was maybe 3 years ago since it became famous (right?)

anyway - neptonics and tin man(mako) came out with american reverse mechs
with "more band stretch" being promised
2"more stretch!
ok - i'm in

then I got them - and they are totally different from a standard mech.
the pull is stiff and the spring that locks the spear in is way weaker- the release is stiffer and generally not as smooth as a S mech.

so - to sum up my initial feelings - the mechs were stiff and not as nice as the S mechs - but for the extra 2"- I will deal with it.

along the way - I have seen another guy come onto a trip with me and he had a hatch - with a reverse mech - but he had a shaft where the fins were like 4"from the end of the spear- negating the extra pull.
I asked him about it and he had no clue.
it seems that people just skim through these posts and just absorb the main stuff and miss the nuance.
If you aren't going to get the right kind of spears- then a reverse mech isnt helping you at all and if you donthave the new roller mech - you have a stiffer - lower performing mech .

another case in point is the galling thing that Majd is consumed with. It sounds plausible but I kept wondering - why do so many old dudes I know have ancient spearguns and nobody ever noticed that they don't shoot good anymore? in all these years - nobody could figure out that basically any older speargun is now shooting worse and worse- due to sear galling? really?

I have been trying to reconcile these tow things when I came across a tidbit in one of Majd's posts- that galling is a reverse mech thing only.
IT IS A NON FACTOR FOR ANYONE WITHOUT A REV MECH!
the testing done that determined the galling issue was relating to reverse mechs and doesn't effect St mechs.
I realize galling will appear on St mechs - but it isn't a factor in reducing accuracy - as far as we know.
the geometry of a rev mech is such that friction is a much bigger factor than a St mech.
so let me illustrate the facts for the hundreds of people who will read this (not for the dozen who already know this stuff)
PROS
1 -you get 2 "of band stretch from a rev mech over a st mech
2- you get smaller profile which allows higher handle placement
this isn't actually true in my opinion -while certain brands have made smaller profile reverse mechs than most standard mechs - if you compare apples to apples like neptonics rev mech vs neptobnics St mech - they are the same profile
a standard mech could be made to be smaller at the back end to match the rev mech - just no one has tried
it looks to me that the St mech - with the trigger at back - would actually allow for higher handle placement- in that- the lever is at the back of the housing - so the housing wont be in the way.


CONS
1 - if you dont utilize the right spears - you get zero net gain in band stretch
2 - the pull isnt very smooth and ranges from tight and shitty - to just a little less smooth than a St mech.
3- not safe for high band loads (i personally wouldn't put more than 2 on one but i guess 3 is ok - (it's your front teeth)
certainly not capable of 4 or 5 bands
4 line releases are weird and often dont reset themselves
5 subject to galling and the loss of accuracy that comes with it.

there is a reason these things came out of the mediterranean- they are great for rear handle guns shooting skinny spears with 1 or 2 bands- for that they are ideal. They are evolving into being good for other applications as well. - but idk if we are there yet.

I can just see a bunch of people skimming through these posts thinking "i gotta get rid of my koah or whatever and get a gun with a rev mech.
problem is - since they dont really understand the whole thing - they will likely get the wrong spear or bands or whatever and negate any advantage they had.
.

on another note - to point out the new roller rev mech as the reference standard for rev mechs isnt fair either - since its the rollers that make the design work and if they work on a stiff mech to make it smooth- imagine what it would do to a mech that is already smooth!
Its the reverse mechs geometry that make it inferior and i predict it will be replaced soon with a standard mech with rollers or something completely new altogether.

I dont think it is a mystery that euro dudes love these mechs but for the US - maybe a gun with a standard mech that is 2"longer just makes more sense.

A reverse mech allows you to gain more band stretch on the same footprint, but more importantly it allows a gun design that pushes the handle very high in the CG of a gun. This is critical in ensuring that recoil forces are properly channeled into your palm and allowing a stable shaft exit. A stable shaft is a shaft that can retain its velocity much better than a shaft that is not stable. Thus you can get very good power without too many bands, without the need for a large amount of mass to control things. So ... more band stretch ... less recoil ... lighter and more manoeuverable gun ... quicker loading ... more range and power ... better accuracy. I think that pretty much sums it up. For many types of spearfishing those advantages are not important (hole gun, shooting in murky water etc...), but in many cases those advantages are compelling.

Could you get the same thing with a normal trigger and an angled push rod and remote trigger? ... I think you could and for a while I was planning to go that route. Fortunately the reverse trigger galling problem is solved and it is not an issue anymore.
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