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Old 03-20-2017, 08:40 PM   #16
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Well said, Mepps, well said.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:39 PM   #17
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Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

With all that said mepps1, not saying you're right or wrong but looking at your country compared to the rest of the developed world, one could not really say it is more evolved than the rest. Why is this if the system you're running is superior? The countries working opposite of what you describe here above should be in some sort of mayhem. Howcome they are not?
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:04 PM   #18
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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I would like to ask something. If healthcare is not a human right, is safety a human right?
Please explain the principles uses to determine your opinion in an academic way.
If healthcare is a human right, exactly whom is going to provide this human rights you lay claim to? If it is as you say "a human right"...what of this person that has been proclaimed responsible to provide you this 'human right'??
What makes this enforcer of this human right nothing more than a slave driver and the service deliver nothing more than a slave??
Or what...do you think that this person's labor not important as any other human beings? Are healthcare workers not worthy of anything more than slave workers.
How about your country deem that a speargun is a basic human right and everyone deserves to have one. Your ability to make a decent living be damned. You must expend your life to making sure all of your countrymen have one of your fancy spearguns in order to survive. Maybe i shall move to your country, My thinks I deserve one of your spearguns!
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:22 PM   #19
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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With all that said mepps1, not saying you're right or wrong but looking at your country compared to the rest of the developed world, one could not really say it is more evolved than the rest. Why is this if the system you're running is superior? The countries working opposite of what you describe here above should be in some sort of mayhem. Howcome they are not?

Sadly, the principles I spoke of are not the way that my country is run. And sadly, my country is in "some sort of mayhem" and is headed for more.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:39 AM   #20
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

The problem with the definition given is that negative infraction statements of rights can also be turned to positive outcome statements based on how I phrase a statement. By the definition given, it would be untrue to say that I have a right to freedom of speech, or freedom of the press. They are positively stated. In fact, please realize that the US constitution is full of positively stated rights.

the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures

the right to a speedy and public trial


I did asked my question specifically based on Marcus' statement that healthcare is not a basic human right. If I have no right to treatment when I am sick and cannot afford private care, then it stands to reason that I should not be entitled to security when I am endangered. Both can easily result in my death. So the private sector should be the sole provider of security services as should they be the sole provider of healthcare. That sounds great. No public hospitals, no military, no police, no fire service etc etc. Pure free market. Demand and supply will determine a price and only the strong survive. Sounds fun.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:38 AM   #21
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix View Post
The problem with the definition given is that negative infraction statements of rights can also be turned to positive outcome statements based on how I phrase a statement. By the definition given, it would be untrue to say that I have a right to freedom of speech, or freedom of the press. They are positively stated. In fact, please realize that the US constitution is full of positively stated rights.

the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures

the right to a speedy and public trial


I did asked my question specifically based on Marcus' statement that healthcare is not a basic human right. If I have no right to treatment when I am sick and cannot afford private care, then it stands to reason that I should not be entitled to security when I am endangered. Both can easily result in my death. So the private sector should be the sole provider of security services as should they be the sole provider of healthcare. That sounds great. No public hospitals, no military, no police, no fire service etc etc. Pure free market. Demand and supply will determine a price and only the strong survive. Sounds fun.
Oh dear. Whatever would we do? You mean supply and demand- the same thing that stocks grocery shelves, builds homes, supplies fuel, veterinary and legal services- What would we do if that happened to medicine? Quite a calamity, when you think if it that way.

I mean- what if drug companies had to compete like tomato growers?

I spent a number of years active as a volunteer on our local fire department. And I can assure you that it would be vastly better off privately run, versus operated by the local junior politician wanabees who ham-hand the thing now.

All the rights you listed are negative rights. The right to peaceably assemble does not mean that others are forced to assemble with you. It simply means that police can't come in and crack your head for peacefully assembling.

The right to keep and bear arms does not grant any arms. It merely meant that you should be able to purchase and possess them without being hassled and arrested.

All negative, with the possible exception of the right to a speedy trial. They can be stated in a negative or positive way, just as I did with the sandwich theory.

The difference is that all the rights you listed are things you can do without being punished, not things which must be taken from someone else in order to be given to you.

I think it's funny that you think there is only the private for-profit sector versus the guvermunt. Maybe you should get out and volunteer a little more. I've personally donated years of my life to various forms of volunteer service. Just think how much more I could do if I didn't have to feed a legion of bureaucrats and politicians before I even feed my own kids.

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Old 03-21-2017, 09:25 AM   #22
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Tomatoes are elastic in demand. Low barriers to entry.
Healthcare is inelastic. High barriers to entry.
You can leave goods and service with high elasticity or reasonably elastic fully to the private sector. The government should never be involved in that.
Goods inelastic in demand cannot be treated the same without having a lot of people priced out due to the incentive to maximize profits. Basic economics.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:32 AM   #23
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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Tomatoes are elastic in demand. Low barriers to entry.
Healthcare is inelastic. High barriers to entry.
You can leave goods and service with high elasticity or reasonably elastic fully to the private sector. The government should never be involved in that.
Goods inelastic in demand cannot be treated the same without having a lot of people priced out due to the incentive to maximize profits. Basic economics.
LOL. Basic socialism, leading to collapse. "Healthcare" (sic) is 98% there already.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:33 AM   #24
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

There is a whole world of healing arts. Most of them are illegal due to guvermunt meddling. I guess that is perhaps a "high cost of entry".
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:56 AM   #25
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

The great economics conspiracy strikes again. I can't argue with that. I'm a sheep so I like knowing that my doctor was trained if I need to have my appendix removed.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:16 AM   #26
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Yeah. Being a free-market radical, I'd go to the half-price guy in the back-alley every time. Then I'd go on Oprah and cry about it after he swiped my kidney instead.

What's it like to beat straw-men to death all day every day?

#winning, I guess?

Being a contractor, I personally get to compete with with the half-price guy every day. And you know what? Sometimes he's not actually that bad. Other times I get paid to try to straighten out his screw-ups. The other funny thing is that often times the full-price guy who's licensed and insured is every bit the half-ass hack that the half-price hack is. I've been paid at least as many times to fix that.

Guvermunt licensing and cartelizing any trade or profession only limits the options people have.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:24 AM   #27
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Nix I could get the crazy idea that you've spent a decade or two being edjucated in guvermunt skools.

It's almost like your teachers had some sort of slant.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:59 AM   #28
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

Perhaps my math teacher, English teacher and PE were all in on the big conspiracy too. My first and best economics teacher many years ago is a guy who teaches for the love of teaching and owns 3 businesses.

When you can't understand something I state based on established economic principles, you try to discredit my education based on conspiracy. So to add to the Big Pharma conspiracies we can now add Big Teacher.

Governments should not be in involved in any industry that is non-essential. If you think education and Health are not essential for an acceptable quality of life and for growing a strong economy then we can agree to disagree.

So would you really let someone who has no formal training remove your appendix? Would you let an untrained, unlicensed pilot fly you around. People are full of talk until their life is on the line.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:45 PM   #29
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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So would you really let someone who has no formal training remove your appendix? Would you let an untrained, unlicensed pilot fly you around. People are full of talk until their life is on the line.
Do you really think either of those two would be in business? If you would do to someone like that w/o doing your own due diligence, then Darwinism rules.
Oh...and I've got your 'Big teacher' conspiracy right here. http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:54 PM   #30
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Re: Stop Misusing the Term "Health Care"

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If you think education and Health are not essential for an acceptable quality of life and for growing a strong economy then we can agree to disagree.

So would you really let someone who has no formal training remove your appendix? Would you let an untrained, unlicensed pilot fly you around. People are full of talk until their life is on the line.
You seem to think that those services can ONLY be properly supplied with government involvement and supervision?

Private education and healthcare have been provided for millennia without any government supervision at all. (Maybe Jesus should have been regulated by the FDA) Consumers are extremely adept at ferreting out quality providers of every kind of service - be it flying, healthcare, or education. Let the market purchase what it wants from whom it deems competent. Costs will go down, quality will go up, and the most competent will succeed.

Private ratings organizations (think Consumer Reports) would spring up to rate doctors, drugs, schools and teachers - and pilots too. People could make informed choices that would be far better than anything the cumbersome, corrupt, and overbearing government has ever provided.

Healthcare is indeed inelastic in it's demand. But that does not negate the operation of the law of supply and demand, when you have multiple providers competing for that demand.

Multiple providers will compete with each other to lower costs in order to secure that inelastic demand for themselves.

So, your economic argument is fallacious.
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