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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 12-06-2016, 12:38 PM   #1
spearq8
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Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Finally managed to finish my Handle Mod video! To be honest ... had I realized how much work this would take ... I would have never done it. I just promised way too many people. I share with you basically the process I went through the last 3 years of testing and carefully checking pool video footage of how recoil works and how I went about changing handle design so that it worked better. Please go through the Theory (part 1) and the Testing (part 3) before attempting to build up your handle. You should have a good idea of what is going and understand the physics behind what I am doing. The Handle Building (part 2) is long ... but I figure you can fast forward stuff that you don't need.

If results by my spearo buddies is any indication, this will be a real game changer for everyone. Performance and accuracy that you thought was not possible with a speargun. If you like light guns you will be able to shoot them with power and accuracy ... if you like heavier guns ... it works even better. Without sounding too big headed, I do think that all speargun handles are designed wrong or at least are not optimized correctly for spearfishing. It is interesting to see the lengths people go to in order to get high performance (rollers, invert rollers, high number of bands etc...) when really the elephant in the room is that speargun handles are just not designed correctly. Dramatically improved accuracy, less mass required on the gun, less felt recoil, better shaft velocity out of your existing band load ... super flat shooting ... what is not to like?

Hopefully this will not descend into a "slug fest" or "who has the biggest dick" thread. If you don't agree with what I am posting that is fine and best would be to just skip this thread. Another thing is I promise you that no faking of video with CG was done (you won't believe how many people ask me that). I used the same camera and mask (high volume and just horrible to free dive with at depth) with the same POV that I use in my pool testing video sessions. Spearfishing footage was done from an amazing trip a few months ago ... the only place on earth I know of where you can shoot YFT, Dogtooth, King Mackerel, GT, Mahi Mahi ... on the same day and all within 10 yards from land. Don't ask me where it is as I would have to kill you if I told you

Theory (Part 1)




Handle Shaping (Part 2)




Testing in Pool & Sea (Part 3)
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:05 PM   #2
peterislame
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

majd you are like Frankenstein creating a monster here. hopefully after putting together that first video you understand why im always giving you a hard time about recoil and safety. how you still have teeth is a miracle to me. your friends wrist looks like it broke on that shot he took.

Something i have noticed is that right handers typically have left shift. i dont-mine goes to the right. i believe it is because i tweak my elbow so it is completely vertical like a target shooter in the olympics. it looks a little weird but it completely locks your arm down and best of all completely fixes the misalignment you mentioned. then the main "weak" point becomes the wrist. your friend did not lock his elbow and almost paid the price for it.

the angle on the target grip you made did not look that much different from the other target grips to me. it just looks like it fit and filled your hand better than the others. the whole handle is contacting the entirety of your hand now where as before it was too long for you. can you include some side by side hd pics? the other thing i want to mention is utilizing mass. in the pool obviously everything is perfectly aligned. in the ocean you have that amazing clear water and you are dive bombing all the fish because you can see them a mile away. in these instances the gun always stays aligned with your body. what happens if you are laying on the bottom and a fish swims past and your body is stationary but you have to move your arm to track? after just having briefly tested that it seems like all that mass and stability goes out the window.
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:22 PM   #3
spearq8
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterislame View Post
majd you are like Frankenstein creating a monster here. hopefully after putting together that first video you understand why im always giving you a hard time about recoil and safety. how you still have teeth is a miracle to me. your friends wrist looks like it broke on that shot he took.

Something i have noticed is that right handers typically have left shift. i dont-mine goes to the right. i believe it is because i tweak my elbow so it is completely vertical like a target shooter in the olympics. it looks a little weird but it completely locks your arm down and best of all completely fixes the misalignment you mentioned. then the main "weak" point becomes the wrist. your friend did not lock his elbow and almost paid the price for it.

the angle on the target grip you made did not look that much different from the other target grips to me. it just looks like it fit and filled your hand better than the others. the whole handle is contacting the entirety of your hand now where as before it was too long for you. can you include some side by side hd pics? the other thing i want to mention is utilizing mass. in the pool obviously everything is perfectly aligned. in the ocean you have that amazing clear water and you are dive bombing all the fish because you can see them a mile away. in these instances the gun always stays aligned with your body. what happens if you are laying on the bottom and a fish swims past and your body is stationary but you have to move your arm to track? after just having briefly tested that it seems like all that mass and stability goes out the window.

Frankenstein my ass. I shoot fish with that gun between my legs ... while holding the reef and keeping current from blowing me off and shooting with the other hand ... shooting fish straight down ... shooting fish straight up ... side ways ... sticking my head in a hole and holding the gun upside down to make a shot ... any which way you can imagine. It has nothing with having a perfect posture or granite wrists like you assume and is not dangerous if you follow things properly. It is more to do with having the recoil go properly into your palm rather than thumb. What is dangerous is going out and buying a Riffe mid handle with default setup and on your first drop you go to 65 feet and line up a nice shot on a fish and get clobbered with a butt in your face that almost knocks you out (I am a victim of that). No warning label ... nothing. If anything, a properly shaped handle makes things SAFER not more dangerous. Recoil is NOTHING even with the highest loads you can put on your gun.

Again ... try it first and once you do then let me know what you think. I am telling you, this is a game changer. Forget the high accuracy and incredible performance ... I am just talking felt recoil reduction.
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:26 PM   #4
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Many thanks for these videos. Both the video and the handles look like they were tons of work.

I don't have your patience or tools and equipment but I may try and do the handle with just putty this week. I'm shooting and filming the Denton 120 (132cm) and new Albacore 130 this weekend. I have some tapered roofing installation from a commercial job I'm going to cut in half and epoxy together (both angles will together make a square shape).
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:40 PM   #5
spearq8
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

It actually takes very little time to mod the handle if you just use epoxy putty. You really don't need the CF ... just let the epoxy putty harden and put a friction coat over it. It is important that you understand the theory of how this works as this is not just a simple ergo grip or target grip, but rather placing your handle in a position which allows your recoil to harness your body mass. I use only epoxy putty and friction layer whenever I travel and I don't have supplies. It works extremely well ... on the last trip I did it for all the guys with me. I can tell you that the transformation of all the guys was incredible ... in the pool it already was obvious that things had improved as they were all shooting tight groups. And I got to see what it looks like when someone shoots a fish at super long range from the side. This really is a game changer and I am not just saying that. Hard to believe something so simple can make such a huge difference ... but it does.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:57 PM   #6
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Good vid. The carbon fibre would help add peace of mind for me regarding the strength. I did something similar after watching the Trygons vid, it has lasted fine for about a year and a half with just epoxy putty. I hadn't looked closely at the alignment with barrel and arm so will have a look at my handles again.
Some of those shots certainly did look 'long range' even by gopro standards.

Ps I did have a chuckle when the gun hit your friend in the face
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:01 PM   #7
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Majd, you really put a lot of time into that video...thank you. I already messed around with it and had some great results. Good job thinking outside the box on this one.
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:05 PM   #8
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Old shape

After MajdQ8 mod



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Old 12-06-2016, 05:07 PM   #9
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!




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Old 12-06-2016, 11:12 PM   #10
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

That looks perfect !!! On the Abellan it is a very quick mod (at least for my hand) as the trigger to palm distance is short. I would also do a memory aim lock as that makes shooting really quick and accurate when hunting.

About CF wrapping ... if you have to compromise the structural integrity of the handle by thinning down the neck ... like you might need to do with a Bleutec or some other guns ... the CF makes the handle stronger than it was even in its original state. As for chipping of the epoxy putty ... I had that happen with some epoxy putty I used. But the Marine grade epoxy putty seems really good and has not chipped and probably doesn't need CF wrap.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:17 AM   #11
Diving Gecko
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks so much for the vids! I can tell a ton of work and time went into it. THANKS!
It's super cool how thorough you were. For me especially the theory part was great and the shots from above showing the line you are aiming for really helped.
Personally, I'm happy and a tad relieved as I'm not too far off myself though I went down this path a while back without the luxury of a tutorial or Majd's other posts:-)

This was for my Mares Mirage 125. I think of it as V1.0;-):


And mounted on the gun. For added grip (friction layer), I used some local Filipino beach sand. It really does help a whole lot:



I started working on V2 but work on it stalled a while back. But the plug looks like this:



In my hand and without a glove it looks too small but it's a great fit gloved. Another question I had before watching Majd's videos was whether to add a thumb rest or not. While a later grip I did for another gun has a bigger rest, this one is kinda in the middle. So, I'll probably make the thumb rest even more pronounced on this plug before I make the final carbon grip and mount it on my next modernized and extended Mirage. But I am happy it looks to line up great with my arm - that was the biggest pointer I picked up from the videos:




A while back I was also working on a grip for my Seac Hunter but while the shape is nice, it's not as much in-line with my arm as the Mirage grip above. It does have a bigger thumb rest. I might just leave it be as it's for a small pneumatic with very little recoil in the first place;-).





Thanks so much again Majd!


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(BTW, why is it million times easier to upload pics in line with text from Tapatalk? I can't figure out how to do it in the regular browsser:-( )

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 12-07-2016 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:31 PM   #12
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks very much Madj for putting all that effort and ressources in this. You're one of the (if not THE) most dedicated (and independent) speargun tester out there and you do a great job!

I will have to try your modification when I get around to do it one day.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:32 PM   #13
spearq8
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Nice handles ... my CF work could use some improving I guess! Great job! Of course I did many handles and this was more an evolution rather a one day thing. Initially I just wanted a better fitting handle and wanted to also have an "aim memory locked" handle that would allow quick instinctive shooting ... but I did notice that by simply changing to some of my different handles I built, I got much better accuracy and much higher penetration. I already knew that the secret to flat shaft flight was reducing muzzle lift and that this was best handled by a super high handle or high mass as far forward to the muzzle as possible. But the "Left Shift" was a real PIA and I would hit a wall every time I tried to push things harder. The problem was not only the shifting of impact point, but also the drop in penetration due to unstable shaft flight. Finally I put up a top camera and took pictures of my hand holding a bunch of different guns from above ... and it was immediately clear what the problem was ... every single one of the handles was not aligned with line of recoil ... every one ... so all this while we were all shooting spearguns that by design were sending recoil off center ... that solved the shifting problem. In the end I just put my old aim locked handle with properly aligned shape ... and bingo ... results were incredible. I eventually moved this to a light Pathos gun ... more out of curiosity to how far this could be pushed ... and was really surprised by the results.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:44 PM   #14
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Now i hate you!

From reading your posts i was supermotivated and modified my abellan and custom BW gun, then reading more i remodified and improved, now with this videos i have noticed that i still had some points not covered and feel like i want to mod even a bit more!

Thx for doing what shouold be done but nobody else does.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:15 PM   #15
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thank you for these videos spearq8. Very very very generous of you to do. Looks like I got some work to do...
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