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Old 12-07-2016, 09:21 PM   #16
jfjf
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks for taking all the time to do this. That video must have taken hours alone. Great job on this.

I generally like to use a second hand on my gun for better stability and recoil control. Maybe the second hand is more important than I realize.

I don't think i have the patience, the skill or a vacuum bagger, so I probably won't be trying to duplicate your efforts.

I have a few questions..

Do you think the modification is essential if the shooter normally uses a second hand on the butt?

Would it make sense for the speargun manufacturers to make their handles in this rough configuration (with the large "thumb wrap" or whatever you want to call this grossly asymmetrical handle) - and then "allow" the final user to trim/grind excess material off? Would this be easier than adding material?

If for example a modular aR-15 handle were mass produced like that, maybe they wouldn't be that expensive and a mistake would not cost that much and you could just buy another and start over?
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:13 PM   #17
doyenofcastle
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

I have tried both as in photo and the best for me was the handle with large inclined angle ,I just learn it from ergonomic subject I was study in college ,gun doesn't flip from the (pivot /handle ) where I hold it once trigger pull .if you have drum sander with different small diameter just fix it to the drill stand and it will do every thing in few minutes
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:42 AM   #18
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Yes of course, if you use 2 hands you have a double brace and you can control things much better ... but even then a properly aligned handle will do better with 2 hands. I think the problem is that while many manufacturers will test handle fit, they are testing more how it feels when you hold the gun rather what happens when you fire. All a gun designer has to do is to reduce the distance from palm to trigger to allow for you to rotate the hand and put your thumb up high and place your palm squarely behind recoil. You can try that with your existing gun ... but your index finger will probably not be able to reach the trigger ... and even if it could the handle would feel awkward as you have no support in many areas of your hand and if you shoot it would be like shooting a 12 gauge shotgun while leaving a 3" gap between the gun and your shoulder. So yes I do think that a gun handle can be mass produced to fix the alignment problem, and word will get around and I expect to see all spearguns to have different handle soon. I mean it just would be stupid not to adjust that.

Aim memory locking is a different story and it would be a specific shape that fits exactly to your hand and glove you choose. I can tell you that it is extremely useful when hunting ... I look at my old spearfishing videos and compare them with the new videos ... huge difference in time it takes me to pull the trigger. You just point your gun at something and everything is perfectly squared up automatically. This is especially useful when tracking and shooting a moving fish as it makes your gun just an extension of your arm and allows very high accuracy with much quicker shot on target.

By the way, you don't need a vacuum bag. You can do a mod with marine epoxy alone and then if look of the handle looks too ghetto just paint it when you put a friction layer. Even if you want to CF a handle and don't have a vacuum machine, you can "skin" it. Here is a very good tutorial on how to skin CF.


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Old 12-08-2016, 02:14 AM   #19
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Excellent work! Your explanations are very clear too. I have an Allemanni Mediterano 105 and the grip makes the gun. Double roller with lots of power. It is very accurate. It doesn't recoil like most guns due to the grip being very close to the center axis. I will modify the grip on my next gun which will be short for hunting around the reef.
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:23 AM   #20
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Aim Memory Lock
In reg. to the 'aim memory lock', that was actually my main objective - more than recoil control - when I set out to make my grips. But I went about it in a slightly different way.

I'll try to explain as it might work for you guys, too.
Basically, I held the handle with a short piece of barrel on it and started taking very fast aims with it. More like throwing punches while holding the handle, actually. I just looked at a target on my wall at home and threw the punches one after one. Very much like shadow boxing.
The way to do it is to just look at the target, then 'punch-aim' the handle as fast as you can instinctively without visually aiming. Then "hold the punch" as in holding the handle steady where the punch landed and then finally sight down the handle. If you are on target, then you have a handle that is locked into your natural, instinctive aim. If it is off - you don't correct your hand or how you throw your punches - you correct how the handle sits in your hand until your instinctive punches line up with the target. Once it does, you fill your grip with putty to support that position the best possible.

This exercise really helped in dialing both the inclination or angle of the handle - that was the easiest and biggest change to verify - as well as the side to side correction.

I think this could still be a valid approach to dialing in your handle to achieve aim memory lock. For proper recoil control and not just pure aiming it is paramount to make sure you pair it with Majd's important point about having the handle completely in line with the underarm for recoil control. Depending on how you normally hold your wrist when throwing punches you might actually have to twist it outwards slightly (when looking at your arm from straight above) to bring the handle properly in-line. This might go a little against what I said above about not changing your wrist angle - but you may have to do this one little thing and then throw your punches (I just checked myself, and I have to do it). Then you should be able to obtain both aim memory lock/instinctive aiming and a properly lined up handle for maximum recoil control.

On a side note, the reason I put so much effort into achieving this with my grips is that I only spear on holidays once or twice a year and I found it took me too long to get my aim back each time. And especially when I had to shoot fast, I would miss and pretty much always in the same direction (verified by reviewing a lot of video clips). I figured it was because I was not used to compensating the aim and as a solution, I decided to change the grip angles instead of having to remember to change my wrist angle in what was essentially, for me, an un-natural way.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 12-08-2016 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:43 AM   #21
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks for the in depth post and video. It really explained and demonstrated the shift when shooting the guns. Thank you for putting in all the time and effort.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:55 AM   #22
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
Aim Memory Lock
In reg. to the 'aim memory lock', that was actually my main objective - more than recoil control - when I set out to make my grips. But I went about it in a slightly different way.

I'll try to explain as it might work for you guys, too.
Basically, I held the handle with a short piece of barrel on it and started taking very fast aims with it. More like throwing punches while holding the handle, actually. I just looked at a target on my wall at home and threw the punches one after one. Very much like shadow boxing.
The way to do it is to just look at the target, then 'punch-aim' the handle as fast as you can instinctively without visually aiming. Then "hold the punch" as in holding the handle steady where the punch landed and then finally sight down the handle. If you are on target, then you have a handle that is locked into your natural, instinctive aim. If it is off - you don't correct your hand or how you throw your punches - you correct how the handle sits in your hand until your instinctive punches line up with the target. Once it does, you fill your grip with putty to support that position the best possible.

This exercise really helped in dialing both the inclination or angle of the handle - that was the easiest and biggest change to verify - as well as the side to side correction.

I think this could still be a valid approach to dialing in your handle to achieve aim memory lock. For proper recoil control and not just pure aiming it is paramount to make sure you pair it with Majd's important point about having the handle completely in line with the underarm for recoil control. Depending on how you normally hold your wrist when throwing punches you might actually have to twist it outwards slightly (when looking at your arm from straight above) to bring the handle properly in-line. This might go a little against what I said above about not changing your wrist angle - but you may have to do this one little thing and then throw your punches (I just checked myself, and I have to do it). Then you should be able to obtain both aim memory lock/instinctive aiming and a properly lined up handle for maximum recoil control.
Ive been doing this for many years with each of my guns. Since Ive built so many different kinds, it does take time getting used to reloading and learning how to shoot them. I like to use the full weight of the gun and not just a piece tho. I will look at my exact sight target line the shot up like in real life and then pull the trigger(unloaded of course) Id then lay out the spear fully 100% and go through the process of a full reload over and over and over and over again. I learn how to reduce the number of steps in my sequence and how to hold the gun in a way that only one hand does any kind of work or movement. It was insane how much it ends up helping. I did it so much that my roommate made a new house rule of no pointing guns in the house. She's always yelling "Tony, your'e never going to find a girlfriend thats going to put up with this shit" hahaha

Not only does this help me work out many kinks to problems I might not knew existed, but I dont even think about loading or the final aim of the gun any more. It can be done blindly. I will even practice with my eyes closed. Its an instinctive reaction now. Typically an avid hunter could spend hundreds of hours with his gun and eventually learn this naturally. I simply dont have that kind of time with each gun. However, if done consecutively on land enough times, you'll notice that you'll fumble around less in the water and end up getting more fish because you aren't wasting trying to reload or getting all worked up. There will be less trophy fish swimming around you while you play with your pointed stick that you trying to kill him with and more in the box.

After spending many many hours on the Youtube, I found another material that I want to try as a handle. HDPE....its everywhere around us, and very simple to recycle, melt and re-mold.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:54 AM   #23
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Good effort Majd. This looks like a good way for people to customize their grips on their own equipment. One thing about Target Grips is they need to fit the specific user. Your video shows what can happen if they don't when your friend who has a different sized hand tries the grip that fits you and the gun flies out of his hands. That's one downside of Target grips. Recoil Force is like water. It will find any open spots and fill them. If the grip fits well then you get increased surface area contact and control. If the grip doesn't fit well then the Recoil force will try to make it fit. A less stylized ergonometric grip or ambidextrous grip might rest just within many sizes of shooters' palms, and fit more people, whereas a stylized Target grip should be custom fit. To manufacture these the grip could be able to be sanded to custom as JFJF is saying. This is possible. I've custom fit several Royal Arms Target grips with Rough sandpaper. But again, I think to really get the benefits you are talking about the grip would need to be custom fit by the end user as they are in the Target shooting market, or offered in 5-6 sizes, or the concept would need to be dumbed down a little to have a more generic fit. One nice thing about the AR-15 platform is that there are a lot of options for grips. They have skeleton grips which you can then add form to. There are base grips which adjust for Rake angle, and very cool base grips which adjust for Trigger pull length. A lot of what you are talking about here can be affected by making sure that your trigger pull length matches your hand size. Good info. I'll try to make one up on an AR-15 Grip and compare 10 shots on the same gun using a standard grip and see how it goes. Check out this Accu-Grip which allows for adjustable trigger pull length. Here is one example of a modular Grip which allows for building a grip to better fit your hand. There are many different options within the AR aftermarket. Here's another which allows for an adjustable Rake. Could be a cool way to combine with your concept.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:56 AM   #24
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

HDPE is a great material. Only problem is nothing will stick to it, so good luck with it.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:33 PM   #25
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

thanks a lot majd for the time and effort done

lready started and finished mod with marine epoxy putty with rough surface and will try it soon.

as for CF i'll give it a shot after i'm satisfied with grip modification

again, thanks a LOT
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:05 AM   #26
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

A perfect job congratulations

Save time using Polimorph thermoplastic hand mouldeable
Also combine colors to get wood color
Red, blue and yellow combine to get wood color
You can sand after hardening the plastic
you only need a base wood stick without form or shape
you can also do the same on a handle for modification.
http://m.ebay.es/itm/50g-Colouring-P...-/171123370017


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Old 12-10-2016, 03:37 AM   #27
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Take your favorite speargun ... hold it ... put it on a couch and aim at something. Now look at the recoil line and your arm alignment (similar to what I did on the video). In my case every single gun I tried (and I tried many) were not aligned. Fixing this should be very simple and very easy for ALL guns ... all a manufacturer would have to do is look at that problem and fix it. I am not sure why nobody has noticed this before as it is very trivial and obvious ... but it is there and you have to be an idiot to manufacture a grip the old way after being told of the problem. Now for "Aim Memory Lock" ... and I really wish I could find a better name for that as it sounds so nerdy so I will call it AML... it is different and is specific for the hand that shoots the gun with the glove he uses. That is hard to manufacture for the masses and you would need maybe 6 or 8 handles to cover different hand size and different gloves used.

For AML I originally just fitted the handle and adjusted by quickly aiming and looking away closing eyes and aiming again. I then found that some handle shot more accurately than others. So putting a level meter in the front showed that some were not leveling the muzzle perfectly and so at long range you would suffer parallax as depending on where your level meter was bent it would push shots off the other direction. I found that if the muzzle was level you really improved accuracy ... so I just added that into the fitting process. The accuracy you can get with a properly fit handle is phenomenal.

As for the Pathos 130 testing with a friend of mine. Initially I was trying to see if I could scratch the sears of a custom sear that I had Kolsterizing hardening treatment on. I really wasn't trying to test the grip or accuracy ... so I just got the stiffest bands I could find of a much smaller gun. It just happened that a friend of mine was there visiting who shoots Pathos and he wanted to give it a try. I loaded one band on the rest tab and the other on the first tab ... but obviously I was surprised by the power the gun still had. It looks a lot more dangerous than it really was as the gun had very little mass and with a rear handle the gun is way further up front. Just the shaft at the end of the line was enough to yank the gun back. The guy actually wanted to shoot it again as he said he didn't hold the gun tight enough ... but the results were identical the second time he tried it. I must have seen about 10 people get hit in the face with spearguns over the years (I am one of them) ... almost all have been mid handles. A mid handle has the butt of the gun much closer to your face and is about 5x heavier than the Pathos ... now that is dangerous and those guns need to come with warning labels. I decided to put that video to let people be more cautious about doing a handle for their hand and assuming it will work for all their buddies. Choosing the Pathos 130 gun was more of an experiment to see how much simply shaping the handle could change things ... sometimes to prove a point you have to go to the extremes ... I think I would have been laughed at if I had said that a 1.6lb gun can shoot an 8mm shaft @ 160cm with such power and accuracy ... but that just shows why you should never underestimate proper engineering or proper efficient design. Shooting that gun at full load really just felt like shooting a 90cm gun. If that gun was a Maserati double invert roller poliplast pulley multiplied actuated speargun ... the thread would be all about how amazing the results of such an exotic gun being able to shoot fish at such ridiculous ranges with such power and so little recoil and so little weight ... an engineering miracle ... As it is it is just a classic 2 banded pipe gun ... so boring!

The point is not to use a super light speargun and push it to the limit ... but rather to understand the physics and data behind that to improve general gun design.
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Old 12-10-2016, 04:09 AM   #28
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks for the videos, I really appreciate your effort! Will I get similar results with polymorph plastic though? It must be easier to use as well, but which one is better, the 42 degree celsius one or the 90 (its melting point)?
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:33 AM   #29
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Polymorph works well but not as good as epoxy putty as you can't really put a good friction layer on. You also shouldn't use it if you neck down the handle as it doesn't offer any structural reinforcement. If you use the Polymorph ... don't use the 42c version as it melts too easily and gets all sticky and will make a huge mess. It is almost like what is used in a glue gun. Go with the higher melt point Polymorph and try to texture the contact surface areas. You can use a highly embossed glove like I used in the video, or you can embed large salt granules on the surface when the plastic is still soft and then dissolve the granules with water later on. You are left with a pretty good texture.

Good thing about Polymorph is that the grip is not permanent and you can readjust it if you didn't do a good job the first time. My first handles I tested were all Polymorph ... it is only later that I moved to epoxy putty and CF.

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Old 12-10-2016, 06:20 AM   #30
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Thanks. Here, many guys use a silicone material called sikaflex 291. You can make this material pretty bumpy and it is very tacky although it doesn't usually stay on for a long time. If you sand the plastic it should stick though.
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