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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 01-08-2017, 11:42 AM   #61
Diving Gecko
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Forged in Mordor

I am working on another Mares Mirage handle.
Basically, the Mirage has a crazy sloped-back grip that I never got used to, so it had to go.


It is a pretty major operation but this time, I am going about it a bit differently. Instead of mounting a molded shell as the one posted above somewhere, I am building the grip in putty like Majd does.
But my putty is some pretty souped-up DIY stuff and I can't help thinking some nasty Uruk-hai forged this in Mordor...
Well, maybe not but here are some pics:



And a close up showing the material a bit better:


All the strands you see are chopped carbon fiber. Besides that, the putty is made out of epoxy resin with micro balloons, so I expect it to be very strong and it is actually pretty lightweight. Though I didn't have enough left over to make a sample and calculate the density, but it felt light when I handled it.

I made this a bit undersized as I wanted to have "second filling" with putty to fine tune the grip and then cover it all in carbon fiber. But seeing how much carbon I could actually pack into the putty, I might skip covering the handle in carbon cloth. Not sure yet.

[UPDATE]
I just dropped some off cuts of the putty in a glass of water and... they float;-). So, the density is below 1g/cm3 which I am super happy about as sometimes, pneumatics are slightly heavy in the water. I also tried to flex the grip by leaning against it with a lot of weight. No breaking, creaking or flexing. This stuff is lightweight and tough, just like I hoped it would be. That it looks pretty frikkin awesome is a bonus I hadn't anticipated. I think I will skip the carbon covering on this one. No need, I think.

So, once again. If you are already messing around with epoxy resins then get some micro balloons and some chopped carbon fiber. It is just plain homemade awesomeness:-)

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 01-09-2017 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:31 AM   #62
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Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Lol i use all kind of micro fillers in my fiberglass business. Please, quit fillin my head up with ideas
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:44 AM   #63
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

pffffff
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Old 01-09-2017, 03:12 AM   #64
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

@Diving Gecko ... what putty are you using that floats?? I have some japanese stuff that is supposed to be super light but haven't tried it. As for the chopped strands of CF ... I hope you took good precautions handling that stuff !!! You can buy chopped CF strands and I would rather have that than do it myself. I would make sure I have a good coat of epoxy over those strands ... but great effort and certainly nice to have less weight on the handle!
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:32 AM   #65
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
@Diving Gecko ... what putty are you using that floats?? I have some japanese stuff that is supposed to be super light but haven't tried it. As for the chopped strands of CF ... I hope you took good precautions handling that stuff !!! You can buy chopped CF strands and I would rather have that than do it myself. I would make sure I have a good coat of epoxy over those strands ... but great effort and certainly nice to have less weight on the handle!
Hey Majd,
It's a homemade mix, but I didn't keep tap on the quantities - just mixed by feel. Well, except for the resin which I of course measured on a digital scale.
I mixed the laminating epoxy parts A and B and then dropped in a bit of micro ballons and then some chopped carbon and made sure it was wetted out nicely. Then I added some more micro balloons to get to "putty stage". The micro ballons are about the lightest filler you can get and will make a very light but brittle putty. But the CF strands make up for that. You could of course add more CF and less micro balloons for an even stronger, but heavier putty.
The fibers are actually not sticking out at all. I guess, once they are wetted out, they lay down nicely. I used black nitrile gloves over my gun glove and after a while of shaping the grip, and getting a build-up of putty on the glove, it started sticking to it more. But for the final shaping, I put on new set of gloves and put my hand under a running tap now and again. That did the trick and the strands laid down nicely without sticking. At this point, the putty was also beginning to set a bit. (I used to drop a tad of dish washing soap into a bowl of water to dip my finger in when smoothing out epoxy fillets - but the epoxy I am using now really doesn't like the soap much, so I stopped doing that).

These fibers came chopped, I have a whole bag of it. But I have actually stepped up my safety game a bit. I finally have a proper 3M mask with both filters for the chemicals (6001) and a P95 particle filter added, too. (I will look for a snap on P100 filter, too). There is no excuse for not having this. The new silicone masks are surprisingly comfortable and even though we should not debate price when it comes to personal safety gear, the masks and filters are extremely affordable, too. I feel stupid for having waited.

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Lol i use all kind of micro fillers in my fiberglass business. Please, quit fillin my head up with ideas
Tony, I am not kidding you - when I saw how this came out with the colors and the strands I couldn't help of thinking of your latest marbled grip. You would have loved this one.
I can't seem to get a proper pic of it, though. Yesterday's pics looks a bit too dark. I'd say overall, the color is somewhere between battleship grey and gun metal. The whites are not as white as in the pics, but there is some play and the strands just look cool. This pic might get a bit closer:


The "lip" on top of the hand is actually not for support - though I guess if it fits tightly enough, it might help a bit. It's because I need to place the handle on my foot when I load the gun, so I need a bit of a lip to keep it from sliding off during loading.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 01-09-2017 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:22 PM   #66
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Saw this stuff at the hardware store...


Gonna give this stuff a try... Will save me from having to order carbon tape online...

Wat u guys think?

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Old 01-15-2017, 12:02 PM   #67
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Saw this and thought it might make modding your handle easy, thoughts?

https://sugru.com/about
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Old 01-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #68
Diving Gecko
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

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Originally Posted by HurricaneBK View Post
Saw this and thought it might make modding your handle easy, thoughts?

https://sugru.com/about
yeah... kinda... perhaps... not really;-)

To me, it is too expensive, not remoldable - but it is a nice enough putty for smaller volume projects.
BTW, density of 1.38g/cm3 which might not be that bad (polymorph is about 1.15g/cm3)
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:59 PM   #69
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

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Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
yeah... kinda... perhaps... not really;-)

To me, it is too expensive, not remoldable - but it is a nice enough putty for smaller volume projects.
BTW, density of 1.38g/cm3 which might not be that bad (polymorph is about 1.15g/cm3)
Yeah it is a bit pricey, does look easy to use though.
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Old 01-16-2017, 11:10 AM   #70
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Hello Majd, I was looking at a Match Target Shooting Rifle the other day which has a similar system of handle attachment to the stock as the Abellan with a Center Bolt. This one had degree measurements for Rotational adjustment. Are you essentially rotating the Grip 10-15 degrees clockwise for a righty or counterclockwise for a lefty?
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Old 01-17-2017, 02:51 AM   #71
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

You have to completely forget about firearm handles with spearguns ... I think it is the main cause to why we have many of the speargun design flaws inherent in all spearguns. Firearms just work with totally different dynamics although the basics seem very similar. With a target grip the goal of the grip is to give you the best leverage in order to release an accurate shot. Once you press the trigger with a firearm the job is done as the bullet leaves the shaft before recoil forces can impart forces affecting trajectory of the shot. Remember that target firearms are usually shooting .22 short or .22LR bullets with basically zero recoil. With a speargun ... not so ... you take a shot ... the shaft takes a relatively long time to exit the track ... if your grip does not channel the forces directly to your palm and arm (which is true of every single speargun handle in the market) ... the muzzle of your shaft will shift before the shaft exits the track and thus will push the tail of the shaft side ways. This means your shaft comes out not totally stable and you lose velocity as well as accuracy. Accuracy wise you can sort of compensate for that by adjusting aim (but I hate doing that) ... but you cannot compensate for lost velocity caused by unstable shaft flight and loss of energy that is transferred into recoil rather than velocity. It is all very clear in the video and I think it is well worth the time to take a look at it. The small adjustment to the handle to better fit a speargun dynamics really is a game changer.

Last edited by spearq8; 01-17-2017 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:14 AM   #72
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Yes, I understand. But when I look at the video and do my own clay work here in shop with handle forms, I notice that one of the things that seems pretty simple is to rotate an existing grip in my case 10-15 degrees clockwise which aligns hand/wrist more centrally. The other day I was playing with a Match Target Air Rifle (Steyr. What a piece of engineering) and the Grip was adjustable in every way including rotational on the Centerscrew axis. If for example you took that Abeallan grip and rotated it wouldn't that accomplish your goal of centering your line of force more?
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:39 AM   #73
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Yes, I understand. But when I look at the video and do my own clay work here in shop with handle forms, I notice that one of the things that seems pretty simple is to rotate an existing grip in my case 10-15 degrees clockwise which aligns hand/wrist more centrally. The other day I was playing with a Match Target Air Rifle (Steyr. What a piece of engineering) and the Grip was adjustable in every way including rotational on the Centerscrew axis. If for example you took that Abeallan grip and rotated it wouldn't that accomplish your goal of centering your line of force more?

Yes it would and you would only need a little extra padding on the right side (for a right hander). I think all the new Abellan handles are going to be setup with perfect alignment. The Abellan handle is probably the easiest handle to setup perfectly as it has a very short distance from palm to trigger finger.
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:50 AM   #74
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

Small update on my putty, I did a second round of shaping of the handle and weighed the putty mix. Came out at 0.92g/cm3, so obviously it floats.
Then I mixed up another small batch for testing and crammed in a bit more fiber and less microballoons. It was still a tad wet, I could probably have added a little bit of either the microballons or some fiber. That batch came out at 0.98g/cm3 so basically neutral.

The mix is kinda strong and brittle at the same time. I took some of the 0.98g/cm3 mix and squeezed into a 2.5mm (1/10'') thick plate of sorts. After curing, I broke it between my hands but I hand to put all the force I could into it and lean one edge against a table, too. Had this been a proper laminate, I could not have broken it that way I think. But again, this is light floating putty;-)

To make this mix even stronger, you could reduce the microballoons and add more fiber. The microballons are extremely light and really just add bulk (thus lowering the density) but they also make the putty easy to sand but brittle. Adding more fibers and less microballons, you'd obviously get a heavier putty but it should get very strong. At the same density of polymorh, Sugru or regular epoxy putties I think it would be a lot stronger.

I think one way to use this putty is to do it in two rounds. Use a more fiber rich putty for the first "layer" to build a lot of strength and then a second mix on top of that for final buildup and shaping with more microballoons than fibers.

Anyways, I don't expect any issues with this handle and will report back once it has seen some proper dive time.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 01-17-2017 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:28 AM   #75
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Re: Handle Mod video ... GAME CHANGER !!!

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Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
Small update on my putty, I did a second round of shaping of the handle and weighed the putty mix. Came out at 0.92g/cm3, so obviously it floats.
Then I mixed up another small batch for testing and crammed in a bit more fiber and less microballoons. It was still a tad wet, I could probably have added a little bit of either the microballons or some fiber. That batch came out at 0.98g/cm3 so basically neutral.

The mix is kinda strong and brittle at the same time. I took some of the 0.98g/cm3 mix and squeezed into a 2.5mm (1/10'') thick plate of sorts. After curing, I broke it between my hands but I hand to put all the force I could into it and lean one edge against a table, too. Had this been a proper laminate, I could not have broken it that way I think. But again, this is light floating putty;-)

To make this mix even stronger, you could reduce the microballoons and add more fiber. The microballons are extremely light and really just add bulk (thus lowering the density) but they also make the putty easy to sand but brittle. Adding more fibers and less microballons, you'd obviously get a heavier putty but it should get very strong. At the same density of polymorh, Sugru or regular epoxy putties I think it would be a lot stronger.

I think one way to use this putty is to do it in two rounds. Use a more fiber rich putty for the first "layer" to build a lot of strength and then a second mix on top of that for final buildup and shaping with more microballoons than fibers.

Anyways, I don't expect any issues with this handle and will report back once it has seen some proper dive time.

There is this really light epoxy putty I bought and is in my video which I think floats. Haven't tried it yet but I plan to. Also interesting is the Free Form stuff ... looks very interesting but I was not able to ship it to my location. If I was in the US I would certainly give this stuff a try.


https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/free-form-air/
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