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Dive Training for Free Diving or Scuba Diving Discuss and learn about dive training for free diving or scuba diving in any geographical region.

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Old 08-09-2013, 08:47 AM   #61
Muay Thai
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Re: Trained Freedivers

I do know 1 up/1 down works! Sorry you took so much offense at my post, just trying to save the next life. But I know I probably won't.

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Old 08-09-2013, 09:08 AM   #62
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Muay Thai View Post
I do know 1 up/1 down works! Sorry you took so much offense at my post, just trying to save the next life. But I know I probably won't.

Scott
I agree, I believe even in low viz situations it works if applied/used.

I don't take offense, I just know that everyone is different and not everyone wears the same weight, wetsuit, etc. I don't know if my buddy planned to do all dives in 5'-15' so he wore more than he would if he was planning to dive in 35'-60', we don't know. Hell, we don't even know what amount he was wearing, alls we know is what his dive partner thinks he may have been wearing.
There is no blanket amount of weight that all divers should wear.

I would also agree that most spearos are overweighted in general and it's a bad practice.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:36 AM   #63
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Re: Trained Freedivers

@RMS you said "I agree, I believe even in low viz situations it works if applied/used."

I'm new to freediving but I just don't get this; someone explain it to me.
If its low vis then you basically can't see your buddy. And if you can't see him and something goes wrong; well he might as well be alone. One up/one down makes no difference. Do you think that if OC's buddy had been right above him when he was lost that it would have made any difference? His buddy still would not see the problem as it occurred and he would still not be able to locate him. I'm not saying that having a buddy is totally pointless; I'm saying diving in unknown low vis water is extremely dangerous, even with a buddy.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:36 PM   #64
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Re: Trained Freedivers

I'd imagine that people who are serious enough, talk at the surface and discuss their dive plan. Therefore even in low vis the partner will know where the diver is going (direction of travel, speed, if they're diving straight down and sitting there) and the dive partners will know each others down time and when to expect them up (everyone has a watch to keep track of time as well). It works if people are extremely serious about it though and never deviate from the plan even if there is a prime fish just a little off or something. That's why the Cali divers (myself included) who say that doing 1 up/1 down in the kelp beds of Cali are just making excuses for themselves. It is totally possible, but takes extreme dedication to never deviating from the plan and we're all pretty much focused on getting fish.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:51 PM   #65
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Re: Trained Freedivers

We thought about making a bubble generator so in bad vis you could at least follow the diver somewhat by following the bubbles. Thoughts about the concept??
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #66
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Re: Trained Freedivers

Hey Keller, What about a wrist mounted unit, about the size and shape of a dive watch, with a lanyard that could be strapped to the gun. The lanyard attaches to a pin. If the diver is separated from the gun and float line, it pulls the pin, and the wrist unit activates a strobe and buzzer, like a smoke alarm. That should be audible to nearby buddies with ears in the water. Would the strobe help, or would it be disorienting in bad vis?

I was thinking about that over the week...

The bubble thing would be cool, but how long would you get bubbles from a common source, (co2 cartridge?), before it stops?

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Old 08-09-2013, 01:13 PM   #67
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Re: Trained Freedivers

I do a bunch of snowboarding here in Utah and own an avalanche beacon. I have always had this Idea of making something that pinged out a signal that to be picked up on the surface of the water with a receiver. I have seen these types of devices work amazingly well in 10 plus feet of snow.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:14 PM   #68
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Re: Trained Freedivers

@laguna80 - If your diving in such a restricted manner (and I do get why you are doing this) then why not just tether yourself to a float?
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:38 PM   #69
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Re: Trained Freedivers

A problem with the audible signal is that it is extremely difficult to determine the direction - underwater sounds appear to be coming from all directions at once. A flashing light would work in really clear water if it were bright enough to overcome ambient light. But in murky water the particulate matter would scatter or alltogther absorb the light.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:25 PM   #70
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Re: Trained Freedivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
@RMS you said "I agree, I believe even in low viz situations it works if applied/used."

I'm new to freediving but I just don't get this; someone explain it to me.
If its low vis then you basically can't see your buddy. And if you can't see him and something goes wrong; well he might as well be alone. One up/one down makes no difference. Do you think that if OC's buddy had been right above him when he was lost that it would have made any difference? His buddy still would not see the problem as it occurred and he would still not be able to locate him. I'm not saying that having a buddy is totally pointless; I'm saying diving in unknown low vis water is extremely dangerous, even with a buddy.
Considering a high % of swb happens at/on the surface or right below (rule of 9's) I do feel that if you are practicing 1up/1down that you could save your partner. Also when a swb/lmc occurs you release all your air and create a bubble trail, if you are floating there waiting for your partner and see a bubble trail that would also allow you to know something is wrong and where abouts your partner is.
Like it was previously said, you have to know your partner and have a plan and stick to it. Not to mention you have to be dedicated to this system and watch one another closely.
I'm not gonna sit here and act like we do practice/use this all the time. In most of our FW diving we split up and go our own way and do our own thing. Most of my partners are "pfi certified", I am too, we all took level 2 together. But considering the majority of our dives are 5'-15' we don't or didn't feel that the 1up/1down was a necessity, that is until OC's tragic death.
I do feel that if OC had waited for his partner to return or if he would have stayed up in the shallower part of the cove then things could have turned out better. I just hope they find him soon.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:28 PM   #71
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Re: Trained Freedivers

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Originally Posted by Slamcorps View Post
Hrmmm this thread has me wondering. I am 160 lbs 5'8" when diving Freshwater in a 5mm one piece I go between 10-12 lbs of lead depending on how fat I am that day. I am positive on the top down to about 12'-15' before I neutral out. Would this be considered over weight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
The FII guidelines say you should be neutrally buoyant at 30 feet. The reasoning is that almost all blackouts occur in 30 feet or less, and if you are buoyant in that zone, well at least your body will be found even if you are not saved by a buddy.
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Is that true? I didn't think you exhaled your air when you black out because your body goes stiff and everything locks up, keepin your jaw clenched and muscles tight so you don't exhale....not sure what happens

can anybody answer this question?
You lose respiratory control when you black out. Some people do go rigid when they black out but most go limp. Our mouth does usually stay shut and larynx close during blackout. Still, the most significant sign that somebody is in trouble is their involuntary release of air.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:06 PM   #72
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Re: Trained Freedivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedivemd View Post
I'm new to freediving but I just don't get this; someone explain it to me. If its low vis then you basically can't see your buddy. And if you can't see him and something goes wrong; well he might as well be alone. One up/one down makes no difference. Do you think that if OC's buddy had been right above him when he was lost that it would have made any difference? His buddy still would not see the problem as it occurred and he would still not be able to locate him. I'm not saying that having a buddy is totally pointless; I'm saying diving in unknown low vis water is extremely dangerous, even with a buddy.
I'm sure you learned in your class that the majority of blackouts occur at or near the surface. Even if you don't catch your buddy as soon as he surfaces, if he is weighted correctly (as you also learned during your class), if he blacks out on his way up, he should still float to the surface, where you have some time to rescue him before terminal gasp occurs. In OC's case, if it was, in fact a shallow water blackout that caused his death, then yes - if his buddy had been right above him it ABSOLUTELY could have made a difference. If it was entanglement, we'll never know if anything could have been done. I'm not blaming his buddy, because it wasn't his fault. OC was an adult who made his own decision to dive solo.

In moderate to heavy current, keeping track of your buddy's position and being close to him when he surfaces is difficult, especially where the surface and bottom currents differ, or if he is doing a lot of horizontal swimming. This is when a floatline really helps. Based on the length of the floatline and its angle/direction it's being pulled during the dive, you should have a very good idea of where your buddy will surface. When I spear, I prefer to use a reel, but in really bad vis I would definitely use a float/floatline.

Is this perfect? Absolutely not. But if you want to dive in low visibility, you have to do the best you can. The easiest thing to do is to say that buddy diving is useless in low vis, and so you're not going to bother with it. If you're willing to do it, you can still make your low-vis diving safer. Be open to different ideas and methods of diving. I realize that it's human nature to defend your current practices and be reluctant to admit that there's something that you could be doing better. When I say "you" I'm not referring to freedivemd or anybody in particular. I'm not calling anybody out, so I hope nobody takes offense to this. You're all big boys and girls, and can dive any way you wish. I'm just offering up my humble opinion.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:19 PM   #73
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Re: Trained Freedivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyspear View Post
I'm sure you learned in your class that the majority of blackouts occur at or near the surface. Even if you don't catch your buddy as soon as he surfaces, if he is weighted correctly (as you also learned during your class), if he blacks out on his way up, he should still float to the surface, where you have some time to rescue him before terminal gasp occurs. In OC's case, if it was, in fact a shallow water blackout that caused his death, then yes - if his buddy had been right above him it ABSOLUTELY could have made a difference. If it was entanglement, we'll never know if anything could have been done. I'm not blaming his buddy, because it wasn't his fault. OC was an adult who made his own decision to dive solo.

In moderate to heavy current, keeping track of your buddy's position and being close to him when he surfaces is difficult, especially where the surface and bottom currents differ, or if he is doing a lot of horizontal swimming. This is when a floatline really helps. Based on the length of the floatline and its angle/direction it's being pulled during the dive, you should have a very good idea of where your buddy will surface. When I spear, I prefer to use a reel, but in really bad vis I would definitely use a float/floatline.

Is this perfect? Absolutely not. But if you want to dive in low visibility, you have to do the best you can. The easiest thing to do is to say that buddy diving is useless in low vis, and so you're not going to bother with it. If you're willing to do it, you can still make your low-vis diving safer. Be open to different ideas and methods of diving. I realize that it's human nature to defend your current practices and be reluctant to admit that there's something that you could be doing better. When I say "you" I'm not referring to freedivemd or anybody in particular. I'm not calling anybody out, so I hope nobody takes offense to this. You're all big boys and girls, and can dive any way you wish. I'm just offering up my humble opinion.
^^^this.
Very well articulated.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:36 PM   #74
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Re: Trained Freedivers

OK guys, thanks for the thoughtful answers. I can see that a buddy does make difference - even in low vis - if the diver floats up in a SWB. But I will decile to dive in a lake with submerged trees unless I can see at least a 15-20 feet!
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:38 PM   #75
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Re: Trained Freedivers

Above "Decile" - meant "decline"
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