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Old 03-03-2017, 01:30 PM   #61
SEA_ARCHER
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Honestly, unless Sea Archer has secretly been doing hundreds of Speargun Pool tests I don't think he even understands your posts.
Jon, I in no way attempt to claim to be any type of pool testing officionado. I read these threads with my internet mouth shut trying to learn from the experience of those who have much more experience than me which includes yourself, Peter, majd, and many others. I greatly appreciate the sharing of knowledge.

Peter asked "Have my posts been making sense to anyone else? I feel like im taking crazy pills. "

I gave my response because it was asked for (although I really think Peter was just asking for someone to validate him and that he probably doesn't want to hear that others might not agree with his perception of reality). I am not trying to make enemies here. I realize that Peter may have shared much testing and knowledge with you, and for this he has earned YOUR respect. What he hasn't done is shown supposed "proof" of why we should respect his opinion more highly than that of Majd.

I am posting simply from the point of view of the potential consumer of Pathos, abellan, ulusub or any other quality gun that will shoot straight with or without the help of experienced Spearos willing to share their knowledge. Take that for what it is worth. Which may or may not be worth anything

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Old 03-03-2017, 02:10 PM   #62
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Why not mount the camera on a tripod and have it show the muzzle and the target so you can see the entirety of the shafts flight?.......All im asking for is a few shots from a different angle so i can see for myself........It very well may be shooting perfectly flat. Thats why i want to see the shaft flight.
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Well ... I really don't know what else to do to convince you and I will just give up......Anyway I think I have done all I can do.
Really? you cant think of maybe one other thing? Im not asking for the world here, you dont even have to edit it. Your pool is heated itll only take 5 minutes!

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What he hasn't done is shown supposed "proof" of why we should respect his opinion more highly than that of Majd.
this is why i feel like im going crazy. I posted video, composite overlays, multiple photos detailing exactly why i have my doubts. Are they not showing up for anyone else? maybe i uploaded them wrong. None of this requires you to respect, trust or believe me. Ive never asked that of anyone. Just look at the data and try things for yourself.

Im not trying to prove you should respect me or value my opinion. That makes no difference to shaft flight.
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Old 03-03-2017, 02:47 PM   #63
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

[quote=peterislame;2134365] here is the roller gun impacting the target perfectly level at 6 meters despite muzzle flip.



Really neat photo sequence...

...But testing for accuracy at several different distances will bear this out without setting up an extra camera (for those of us who aren't professional photographers).

Seems to me like the side view is mostly useful when something is going wrong and you're not sure what it is.
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:33 AM   #64
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Its safe to say this thread isn't flat, its on a downward trajectory.

I don't think anyone needs to justify anything to anyone. Just take the info and say THANK YOU to MAJD for all he does and shares with us!
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Old 03-04-2017, 03:32 AM   #65
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

I don't have a dog in this fight. Actually, I can kind of relate to always wanting more information but on the other hand, I trust that Majd says he no longer needs to see side views. And also, I do think that it's a fair point that Majd has publicly shared hours of footage for us while Peter shares a few screen grabs and then more or less insists that Majd gets back in the pool?
But again, you can always ask and as I said, I can relate to wanting more info - but just cuz you get a no, doesn't give you the right to be offended.

As long as we don't have a camera angle showing the sight line (as some rifle shooters do), I agree with the point that if you shoot at different distances as Majd always does that gives the best indication of shaft drop.

In reg. to the composite screen grab; muzzle flip can be many things, but if it happens late enough, it wont lift the tail end of the shaft, right? And that is what I see if that Seal Roller sequence. So, to me, that sequence just shows a shaft that drops steadily but it doesn't look to be whipped or am I missing something?

Personally, I have done a wee bit of testing lately and it is a humongous task to do it all. And more camera angles def adds to the work load. Respecting the work Majd does and the hours he puts into sharing it is only natural. I think it is super cool that Peter tests as much as he does and that Jon supposedly gets a lot of knowledge from that but it would be even cooler if that was shared more widely. Again, you can always ask...

Anyways, carry on guys;-)
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:15 AM   #66
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

From what I've seen on here most of the times Peter has shared testing it's turned out to be a headache for him. As said previously. There's two things Peter can't stand. Recoil and Sniveling. He doesn't have an Ego and isn't trying to build himself up, so what becomes the point of sharing on here and then having to deal with a bunch of Snivelers bringing him down? Give it a try Diving Gecko. Put up some of your testing which questions what some people feel strongly about and see what happens..

PS. Nobody is asking for 360 degrees of cameras. You can use one camera on a tripod which gives the side angle. Like this video. There can't be any disagreement that a side angle is really the most valuable view in learning about Underwater Ballistics. A POV view is really only good for showing recoil angle, but even that can be seen with a side view. This is just a raw video which Peter sent me discussing a Shooting line I'm working on as well as examining the issue of Band tangles/grabs being more frequent with thinner bands and thinner mono.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guyF...ature=youtu.be

Agreed. Just say Thanks to Majd if he has helped you. One way to do it would be to go onto that stupid Anti Muslim Thread which every single one of you has seen, and say "Hey. that has nothing to do with Spearfishing and is insulting to our friends and members of this community" How many of you have taken 2 seconds to do that? Answer 0. So you revere Majd for all he helps you with. But you would have him swallow a turd every time he comes on here and sees that? If I were him I'd be like "Why don't my friends stick up for me a little? Wouldn't they want me to be able to come visit one day?" Here's a link. I challenge you all. If you've learned anything from our friend Majd, drop by that thread and comment the words "Turdspeak is not welcome here"

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=186722

Last edited by Behslayer; 03-04-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:28 PM   #67
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

^^ Actually Jon I wrote the owner of this board and said the exact same thing. He doesn't give a crap and continues to allow those f*&^J to keep that thread alive.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:48 PM   #68
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

In responses to Jon's heartfelt wishes that we should post over there - In all honesty, there are places on SB I never go and if I did, I would go mental and probably burn this place down or just delete my whole account. That thread is one of them, I knew that just judging from the title. Certainly, SB has its fair share of ignorant nutters and I suspect the owner wants the clicks more than do the right thing.
Finally, if I wanted to "educate" people, SB's racist sub forums would be a total waste of my time.

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Old 03-05-2017, 01:56 AM   #69
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

I actually haven't seen that "anti muslim thread" as I just check one or two parts of this forum that I have an interest in ... and even if I did I don't think it would bother me too much. I actually never understood how people take religion so seriously ... my brain is science geared and that is not very compatible with religion. Of course I understand that the "anti muslim thread" that you mention has nothing to do with religion and more to do with racism ... but no country or place is immune to that. I have seen more racism and intolerance locally than in most of the western world. Actually the best way to deal with threads like that is just to ignore it rather than engage it.

Now back to the original thread, many years ago I had a Casio camera with 1000 fps capability and I used it to trouble shoot band tangles as well as general shaft flight. The footage was very useful but quality was terrible. This new camera I have now is the Sony RX100 IV and the underwater housing I got for it is professional grade ... the slow motion capabilities are supposed to be very good with high quality footage. Have had this now for a year and still haven't gotten it wet! Maybe I will now. I do agree it is nice to see footage of actual shaft flight in slow motion, but you also have to be careful that digital cameras footage can be deceiving as these digital cameras have rolling shutters where the frame is not taken instantly, but rather a linear pass from top to bottom. This can distort the video and give you wrong data of what is going on. I think the "jello effect" can be reduced by taking some measures and using special software plug ins to correct for it ... and with these very high frame rates it might not be an issue. Also the shaft needs to be polished to increase visibility and the line needs to be of a highly visible nature ... plus there is only a certain window of opportunity in my house where the sun is directly above (thus giving best visibility for video). I think the video footage would have a cool factor, but I doubt that I would gain any more data than my present testing methods.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:07 AM   #70
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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I actually haven't seen that "anti muslim thread" as I just check one or two parts of this forum that I have an interest in ... and even if I did I don't think it would bother me too much. I actually never understood how people take religion so seriously ... my brain is science geared and that is not very compatible with religion. Of course I understand that the "anti muslim thread" that you mention has nothing to do with religion and more to do with racism ... but no country or place is immune to that. I have seen more racism and intolerance locally than in most of the western world. Actually the best way to deal with threads like that is just to ignore it rather than engage it.

Now back to the original thread, many years ago I had a Casio camera with 1000 fps capability and I used it to trouble shoot band tangles as well as general shaft flight. The footage was very useful but quality was terrible. This new camera I have now is the Sony RX100 IV and the underwater housing I got for it is professional grade ... the slow motion capabilities are supposed to be very good with high quality footage. Have had this now for a year and still haven't gotten it wet! Maybe I will now. I do agree it is nice to see footage of actual shaft flight in slow motion, but you also have to be careful that digital cameras footage can be deceiving as these digital cameras have rolling shutters where the frame is not taken instantly, but rather a linear pass from top to bottom. This can distort the video and give you wrong data of what is going on. I think the "jello effect" can be reduced by taking some measures and using special software plug ins to correct for it ... and with these very high frame rates it might not be an issue. Also the shaft needs to be polished to increase visibility and the line needs to be of a highly visible nature ... plus there is only a certain window of opportunity in my house where the sun is directly above (thus giving best visibility for video). I think the video footage would have a cool factor, but I doubt that I would gain any more data than my present testing methods.
Couldn't agree more on your first paragraph. Online nutters are rarely interested in proper engaging conversations, they'd rather scream unencountered from behind the safety of their laptops.

Cool that you have the RX100IV, it's a great little cam. You need a helper though when shooting high speed sequences as the cam will only record a few secs a time in those modes.
I agree there are many variables that can play tricks on us when using "video proof" - I just noticed that yesterday's video (my first attempt) shows the shaft head downwards and then back up at the end of the light. For now, until I can redo my tests in a proper setting I am thinking it is the fish eye lens' curved image making my shaft defy gravity.
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:38 AM   #71
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
From what I've seen on here most of the times Peter has shared testing it's turned out to be a headache for him. As said previously. There's two things Peter can't stand. Recoil and Sniveling. He doesn't have an Ego and isn't trying to build himself up, so what becomes the point of sharing on here and then having to deal with a bunch of Snivelers bringing him down? Give it a try Diving Gecko. Put up some of your testing which questions what some people feel strongly about and see what happens..
[...]
For your explanation as to why Peter doesn't share, I could argue that people snivel at Majd, too and he keeps sharing. But yeah, haters can be tiring and I for one hope Majd never runs out of energy.

As for my own testing, it is very early days (literally ONE day) so far and there are many things I haven't sorted out. Camera angles, viz, camera issues (cam freezing and needs a reset) and just overall how to interpret things. The only thing I know for sure is that testing is not as easy as it sounds like, especially in the ocean lugging weights and targets around
E.g. on a few of my clips the shaft defies gravity in flight and starts "gaining altitude" at the end which is probably not for real. I suspect the fish eye lens makes it look like this and I need to be more careful about placing the cam more perpendicular and at same height as the shaft line of flight. My accuracy was so bad but I can not make valid conclusions to as why that is. Was it the bad viz, was my aiming bad or is the gun not accurate. Honestly, I have no clue. I did get to shoot some penetration tests but they make zero sense yet as I don't have a benchmark to measure against yet.
You are certainly right about recoil and checking tangles with a side view. I can already see that my recoil goes straight backwards and the muzzle flip happens just after the shaft has exited. This was very nice to see. The line seems to come off the muzzle super cleanly, too. Not a surprise as my gun is a pneumatic one. So, the frustrating testing was not completely worthless but suffice to say, I need a proper pool for this.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:17 AM   #72
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

Woody, good on you. I did the same and also received no response.

Majd, very lucky for you not everyone chooses to ignore and allow injustice to go unchecked right? I have read through enough of that thread to be disgusted, and with 16,000 views.. I know a lot of people reading this thread have also viewed it. It's about community. Spearboard has many Muslim members. I would suggest that you are the most esteemed Muslim member of Spearboard like it or not. It's a disgrace that this is allowed in this community which is based on sharing info about Spearfishing. I do think that if 500 people did not engage the thread other than to write a letter to the owner of SB and also to stop by and leave a very simple message. "turdspeak not welcome here" it would shut that thread down and or atleast ostracize those members who do choose to preach hatred against other members like Majd, Wadii, Mani, etc..... I'll leave up the challenge.
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Old 03-05-2017, 11:40 AM   #73
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by peterislame View Post
Have my posts been making sense to anyone else?
I agree with Peter that a fixed camera mount (not a self or gun mount) makes it much easier to see what is going on. I believe that a side angle view that captures the entire shot from gun to target and a zoom side view with the entire gun and shooter's arm in the frame are the two most useful views. That along with the accuracy and penetration criteria that Majd uses and you have a very good system. We are close to a system that everyone agrees upon and can be repeated...There was a pool testing criteria thread somewhere, maybe on another forum.

How about shaft speed measurements at different distances? I have said this before and still feel that it is possibly the best way to maximize a setup or reveal the capabilities of a setup. Victor Abellan uses a slow motion setup and starts the timer at the frame where the bands make their first movement (or maybe when the first spike of sound from the bands firing) and stops it at the sound of the spear impacting the target. I believe you have to place a plastic plate or something similar on the target that will make a crisp sound at impact. Then you calculate the average velocity of the shaft at a certain distance, say 5 meters. Then you repeat the exact test at 6m, 7m, etc. If the average velocity is 18m/sec at 5m, then drops to 14m/sec at 6 then you have a rate of deceleration. You can compare this with accuracy and penetration parameters at the same time. Want to know which diameter/length shaft and bands to use on a gun? Simple, determine what the gun will be used for and what kind of range you will need. If targeting fast moving reef fish, then use the shaft that has the highest average velocity at 5m. If targeting tuna, then you want the shaft with the most remaining velocity (thus kinetic energy) at 7m. If you have a poorly designed gun, you simply will not be able to match the velocity of a well designed gun, and keep accuracy within an acceptable range. What am I missing, why are we not doing this? You then can say that this 120cm gun is capable of this velocity at this distance with this mass shaft. From there it is very simple to calculate KE which will directly translate to penetration. Whichever setup has the most remaining KE at whichever distance you need it to shoot...
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:11 PM   #74
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by jstiver09 View Post
I agree with Peter that a fixed camera mount (not a self or gun mount) makes it much easier to see what is going on. I believe that a side angle view that captures the entire shot from gun to target and a zoom side view with the entire gun and shooter's arm in the frame are the two most useful views. That along with the accuracy and penetration criteria that Majd uses and you have a very good system. We are close to a system that everyone agrees upon and can be repeated...There was a pool testing criteria thread somewhere, maybe on another forum.

How about shaft speed measurements at different distances? I have said this before and still feel that it is possibly the best way to maximize a setup or reveal the capabilities of a setup. Victor Abellan uses a slow motion setup and starts the timer at the frame where the bands make their first movement (or maybe when the first spike of sound from the bands firing) and stops it at the sound of the spear impacting the target. I believe you have to place a plastic plate or something similar on the target that will make a crisp sound at impact. Then you calculate the average velocity of the shaft at a certain distance, say 5 meters. Then you repeat the exact test at 6m, 7m, etc. If the average velocity is 18m/sec at 5m, then drops to 14m/sec at 6 then you have a rate of deceleration. You can compare this with accuracy and penetration parameters at the same time. Want to know which diameter/length shaft and bands to use on a gun? Simple, determine what the gun will be used for and what kind of range you will need. If targeting fast moving reef fish, then use the shaft that has the highest average velocity at 5m. If targeting tuna, then you want the shaft with the most remaining velocity (thus kinetic energy) at 7m. If you have a poorly designed gun, you simply will not be able to match the velocity of a well designed gun, and keep accuracy within an acceptable range. What am I missing, why are we not doing this? You then can say that this 120cm gun is capable of this velocity at this distance with this mass shaft. From there it is very simple to calculate KE which will directly translate to penetration. Whichever setup has the most remaining KE at whichever distance you need it to shoot...
I agree . This will also give you the sweet spot for a particular gun , one gun may be a long range shooter ,while another is brute force close in with a heavy shaft ,but lacks the stability for long range flight .

A pressure plate target would also be nice but I think that's asking alot more than most are willing to invest . It would also be nice to have someone do some testing in saltwater , since it is much denser than fresh , if it's done by the same shooter with the same gun we can make a conversion chart , same with water Temps, cold water is denser and slows the retraction speed of bands . It may not make a huge difference but it would be nice to know for sure
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:01 PM   #75
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Re: Testing Pathos Sniper 125

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Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
Its safe to say this thread isn't flat, its on a downward trajectory.

I don't think anyone needs to justify anything to anyone. Just take the info and say THANK YOU to MAJD for all he does and shares with us!


What he said!

The tests that various people is supplying us with is really useful to many of us. The persons putting down the hours making these tests shall be able to do so in their own preferred way and then the rest of us can interpret the results and use whatever we can learn from it as we wish. There simply is no need for trash talking the data in either direction.
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