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Old 02-03-2009, 04:27 PM   #16
wgallaway
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

being a norcal guy that likes to bug dive, I sure wish I could frequent that spot. Do your thing, ignore the freaks, and eat well....
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:39 PM   #17
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

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Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Tell you what Dave. Since I know you go out of your way to stay away from the seals when you use CP, next time someone calls you about your use of CP, tell them politely that you have legal representation and you do not wish to speak to them.

Tell them to call me (Joseph Nguyen). You have my number. Often times, that is enough to stop it but I'll talk to them if they want to talk further. This doesn't cost you a dime. Pro-bono from my firm.

Thankyou Joe!
That is an incredible gesture and much appreciated!

Last edited by zenspearo; 02-04-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:48 PM   #18
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

I spoke to Michelle Zetwo at NOAA (who was very generous with her time but the discussion got specific quickly about the points of the law and she as quickly bailed when I began to pin things down and referred me to Paul Ortiz, General Counsel Office of NOAA--562-980-4069).

Two things I asked point blank.

1) Is it NOAA's position that CP is off-limit to divers. Answer: "I did not say that and I will never say that. No."

2) In the absence of specific quantification regarding distance, number of seals on the beach, behavioral pattern before/after diver entry that suggests causation with diver harassment, how is a diver to know what the boundary of the law is in order to attempt good-faith compliance. Answer: I can't answer that.

So they are bouncing me up the chain and passing the buck. Will try to get NOAA's official position from their general counsel soon. I have a feeling it won't be any clearer but we'll talk.
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Last edited by zenspearo; 02-03-2009 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:53 PM   #19
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

thank you Joe!!
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:58 PM   #20
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Dave, Were you approached by a real NOAA staffer at CP or not?

Hay seal people! come out a play! We are not as bad as you think!
We want to hear your thoughts.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:06 PM   #21
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Okay, message left for Paul Ortiz. I'll chat with him and see what info we can get so that divers can feel comfortable using CP. May be there is no such thing, but we'll talk first and see.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:08 PM   #22
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

way to go Joe...that is a really generous, and productive offer. Taking action like that may actually lead to some balance re-instated to the CP... meaning if their harassment actually causes a push back from the community they're bullying around (divers, families, etc...) then maybe the higher ups in whatever organizations are backing these nuts will realize they're backin a bunch of wacko's that are actually harming the cause. Surely there must be an oz. of reason somewhere up this line. Kudo's to you for tracing that line...and to the rest of you who aren't willing to be scared off by some crazies.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:21 PM   #23
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Great point, if they are lurkers here, then why dont they just please come out and tell us what the deal is. What is a safe distance we can enter the water from the seals that would make them happy. I dont think anyone here would not follow reasonable guidelines. They are making enemys that arent real. I know for me I spend a lot of time in the water with the blubbery sea dogs, and they sure seem to love the attention. FYI to all the lurkers out there, if you love seals go for a snorkel, they will come up and hug your fins, nibbling on them and play, playfully with them. You wont even need to look for them, they will find you. Trust me, they wont leave you alone. What you guys see on the shore is nothing like what they are like in the water, they like humans. Just not the kind that sit on shore and scare them. Truthfully, Im not sure anyone does.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:30 PM   #24
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

i would say there more like underwater dogs
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:32 PM   #25
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

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Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Okay, message left for Paul Ortiz. I'll chat with him and see what info we can get so that divers can feel comfortable using CP. May be there is no such thing, but we'll talk first and see.
Well done Joe, a little heat/pressure coming back might keep things fair and unbiased.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:40 PM   #26
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Hey thanks joe that is a very nice and cool gesture to do for your fellow SB 'ers. Truley some good karma is going to come your way.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:59 PM   #27
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Thanks Joe! Just got off the phone with Michelle as well. My conversion was good I thought. Told my side of the story and that was about it. I told here exactly what sciencemike said. That I actually like the seals. And think they're fun to be with in the water. And if they are not around then I get nervous, for another type of large fish may be around.

I also thought it was kinda odd when she mentioned that a pup had died after being born thursday night. And she said some reported diver had scared its mother into the water. I thought that was sad and unfortunate and asked where the dead baby pup was found. She informed me that no dead pup had been found in or out of the water. And that they had come to the conclusion of the dead pup solely on a blood spot on the sand. Now i'm no marine mammal expert. But I would venture to say that there is a little blood involved in giving birth. No?

See some of you wednesday!
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:00 PM   #28
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

The whole tactic is intimidation and misinformation--designed to make you feel guilty and put you on the defensive for doing something you are legally entitled to do. The seal people are exploiting NOAA and DFG and all other agencies to further the intimidation.

Think about this.

The whole reason for the existence of FOS (and similar organizations) and their power base and money comes from the conflict they are sowing at CP.

If they win CP's battle, do you think the head of FOS would call in his/her troops and say that "Hey guys, it's done. We are disbanding. We are going home."

No.

For the FOS organization to continue and for the guys/gals who now heads FOS and similar organizations to continue reaping the rewards (whether psychic or monetary), they will NEED to find another conflict or create another one. That means the next beach that has a seal hauling out. The battle will start again, the money will keep flowing in, the volunteers keep going out to harass people, and their power base continues to be expanded.

CP is where it must stop because if it doesn't stop at CP, FOS won't roll over and disband if they win at CP--they will look for the next beach, and the next, and the next...

Thus for CP, a stalemate may be the next best thing--it feeds FOS's continued need for existence (and money and publicity, etc) but for us, it checks the expansion of this movement toward human exclusion instead of sharing at other beaches.

But that means we have to continue to have our men on the patrol...

And with MLPA looming, we need to be more vigilant in making sure CP doesn't fall (some will argue that CP has nothing to do with MLPA but they are ...well, FOS).
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:10 PM   #29
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

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Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Two things I asked point blank.

1) Is it NOAA's position that CP is off-limit to divers. Answer: "I did not say that and I will never say that. No."
She might not come out and say its off limits, but that is exactly what she implied to me. She told me that if I'm entering or exiting, and a mother seal tramples its young, it would be my fault, and I would be facing federal charges. She was trying pretty hard to intimidate me, but I told her I would continue to use the children's pool as long as it was legal. I am very interested to hear what her boss says about the whole situation.
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:27 PM   #30
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Re: The Plot Thickens (Children's Pool Related)

Dove the CP area this morning. Went in at Shell Beach, and exited at Childrens Pool due to the low tide conditions. Got stink-eye from one lady who called out "hey!" while I was walking to the shower, but I didn't respond. No less than 10 tourists asked me about the beach and the seals, which I gave best information answers...the lady stood by, and didn't try to interupt as is their habit...the tourists were enthralled.

BTW, vis is 25+, moderate surge at incoming low. Lot's to see, although no WSB.

Thanks Joe, I agree the threats are very elementary, and I'm glad we don't subscribe to such primitive thought.

Cheers, see you guys tommorrow. Stay Frosty
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