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Old 10-12-2018, 11:12 AM   #31
grey2112
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eibwen View Post
Yeah, always smart to have oxygen on board when diving. People can still get bent in shallower water although I would guess it is far less common in the gulf than on the East coast where the water gets deep very quick. The only time I think oxygen might not be warranted is if the person is experiencing oxygen toxicity although (going from recollection) I don't believe there is a consensus on administering O2 and of course chances are you wouldn't know if it is DCS or CNS O2 toxicity.

An AED is a good idea too. If you fish someone out of the water I suspect you'd be limited to CPR in any case (b/c they're soaking wet) but people can go down anytime.
You can actually use an AED safely on a wet person or deck - you just have to back up a little more before the shock is administered and still might feel a little tingle, though wearing rubber booties or standing on some mat may help to mitigate it.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:16 AM   #32
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

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Originally Posted by Wood Guy View Post
I think it's interesting that throughout the above discussions, no one has mentioned having oxygen on the boat. Does anyone carry oxygen for diving emergencies? We've been carrying 2 jumbo bottles with assorted masks in a kit in our boat since we launched it in '98. Fortunately, we've never had to use them, but way back when we started diving in the '90's, the first step for treatment for a rapid ascent, or if DCS, embolism, heart attack was suspected, or almost any other medical trauma was to administer oxygen, then contact DAN, Coast Guard, etc.
Maybe an EMT or other medical personnel out there could offer an opinion on the merits (or not) of having oxygen on board.
Hopefully the captain will chime in and let us know if 02 was available and administered.

I think this thread is providing valuable lessons for all of us and hopefully the open discussion of these topics will help prevent further accidents of this type. This thread is a great example of what Spearboard could be all the time if members made it a priority to do so.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:25 AM   #33
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Serious question... Does diving with a BC even help you that much? I have not dove with one since getting certified and I didn't find it very useful with the exception of penetrating wrecks.

It's pretty easy to control your buoyancy when weighted and breathing properly and if I ever needed to hang on the surface for an extended period of time or make an emergency ascent I would just ditch my weight belt.

I can understand BCs for wreck, cave, and salvage diving but I don't really think it is necessary to recreational spearfish. In my opinion it just adds more gear to worry about and makes you that much more bulky when diving. Also very annoying when I drop people on a small spot and tell them "you gotta get down quick" only to see them floundering on the surface ****ing with their BC, and completely missing the spot.

On another note, so glad this wasn't tragic and that the coast guard responded promptly
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:49 PM   #34
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

1st Good Job handling the boat, They have the boat moving so as to maintain control of the boat with the down draft it would push the boat all over making it dangerous for the rescue swimmer.
2nd congratulations to the diver you survived a situation that you can think about and talk about but not really practice for. and when it happens it happens faster than any body thinks.
3rd to all the divers that go extended distances off shore. Take a medical providers course at your local dive shop and put together a O2 kit for the boat. One thing people that have deco emergency's have told me that O2 provided a lot of relief from the pain also it may help get some O2 to affected areas preventing long term damage. The alternative to this could be a life time of regret for not being prepared.

All Divers going off shore should take a first responder medical class, CPR, O2 provider courses. You never know when you can make a difference in someone's life.
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:04 PM   #35
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eibwen View Post
I don't believe there is a consensus on administering O2 and of course chances are you wouldn't know if it is DCS or CNS O2 toxicity.
Well, odds are if someone toxed, o2 would be of little value because it would be incredibly rare to survive an o2 tox at depth. Drowning is all but guaranteed.
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:21 PM   #36
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood Guy View Post
I think it's interesting that throughout the above discussions, no one has mentioned having oxygen on the boat. Does anyone carry oxygen for diving emergencies? We've been carrying 2 jumbo bottles with assorted masks in a kit in our boat since we launched it in '98. Fortunately, we've never had to use them, but way back when we started diving in the '90's, the first step for treatment for a rapid ascent, or if DCS, embolism, heart attack was suspected, or almost any other medical trauma was to administer oxygen, then contact DAN, Coast Guard, etc.
Maybe an EMT or other medical personnel out there could offer an opinion on the merits (or not) of having oxygen on board.
The sequence you describe is incorrect and this is an important issue. I was on board a boat in the middle grounds when we needed to evac with a USCG hellicopter.

We also called DAN (on the SAT phone) and this is WRONG. We were assuming that DAN would notify the proper authorities to get the evacuation started -especially since the victim was paralyzed from the waist down. However they did nothing of the sort and they did not tell us they were NOT doing it. We finally figured it out, but it wasted a lot of precious time.

Several things went wrong that day and the last I heard, the diver was still using a walker to get around.

We should have immediately contacted the USCG ourselves FIRST. Not call DAN, NOT assume DAN was going to notify the proper EMS constituents.

Get the evacuation started, THEN you can call DAN
.

In the situation I was involved with, the USCG totally screwed up, I think the victim was suing them over it, but I'm not sure of the details. They got LOST! They flew something like 100 miles away from us. We provided the proper location and they didn't get it right and got lost. They almost had to go back to shore I think, because they wasted so much time and fuel on the error.

The pilot/navigator screwed up and the onshore base also screwed up because they did not solicit updates and plot the course of their aircraft so they didn't realize they were way, way off course. If they had, then the error would have been quickly identified.

So that was another hard earned lesson, we should have been talking to the USCG and kept bugging them about where the aircraft was and when it would arrive.

Another comment that others (hopefully won't) find useful is that it is scary as hell with an X-ton helicopter 50 or 70 feet over your head. The turbulent wind coming down will pick you up and literally move you a few feet. EVERYTHING not tied down will blow off. You really NEED to wear dive masks, so you can function on deck - im not sure why the USCG does not tell
divers to wear masks, but I think they should.

Stuff that would not blow off in a 60 mile wind will blow away under a helicopter due to the wind speed and the turbulence - one second it is cold air and the next you get slammed with hot engine exhaust air.

As for oxygen, I try not to scuba dive from a boat unless we have oxygen on board.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:26 PM   #37
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

I think you missed my point, which was: Have oxygen on board and administer it first! Fortunately, I haven't had to contact either DAN or the Coast Guard, so I will defer to your judgement there. I was under the impression that DAN took care of the evac arrangements, obviously not true in your case (Been paying DAN insurance a lot of years under that assumption!). Also not a confidence builder that the Coast Guard can't locate GPS coordinates. Any followup explanation from them? (Likely not, but just asking).

Last edited by Wood Guy; 10-13-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:26 AM   #38
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

I'll address the malfunctioning inflator. It's an important piece of equipment that requires proper cleaning and periodic inspection that frequently receives neither.

The most likely source of trouble with them is a malfunctioning Schrader valve that because of wear/corrosion/salt buildup, etc., opens up and then sticks open. Thus causing an unimpeded flow of air into the BC.

The inflator will usually but not always give advanced warnings that its on the way out by being sticky or hard to push open. Another symptom is when your BC slowly fills itself up while its on the boat. When any of those symptoms appear, it's only a matter of time until it craps the bed and possibly puts you into a bad situation.

You should have an extra inflator in a sealed bag along with a couple of zip ties with you so you can change it out at the first sign of trouble. I think they're like $25-$30 so the cost shouldn't be a deterrent.

After each dive trip you should unsnap the inflator hose from the power inflator and rinse the connection. The hose should attach and disconnect easily from the power inflator.

If you're ever in a situation where you have a runaway inflator, in most cases I'd quickly take a couple of stabs at the inflator button which sometimes will let it reseat. If that didn't work I'd immediately drop the gun , stringer, and anything else in my hands (remembering that scuba spearguns with multiple shafts are negative and dropping the gun will further increase your buoyancy) . Immediately get head down while finning down and use both free hands to disconnect the inflator hose from the power inflator. There is no one size fits all in scuba mishaps and you might have to adjust your response to different situations.

The main focus during one of these events should be to NOT get rocketed to the surface. If for whatever reason you can't get it to disconnect, then I'd certainly consider cutting the hose and then crimping it with your hand. That's an advanced move for an inexperienced diver but def worth consideration compared to being embolized on the surface.

Remember that its a LP hose so crimping it off with one hand will stop/drastically reduce the air flow from it.

The good news is that BC power inflators are generally a low trouble design that with proper care and inspection will give you good results. Just be prepared to deal with any problems that might incur with them.

Glad the diver survived it and kudo's to him for telling the story. The resulting discussion might help someone else.

Safe Diving, Dan
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Last edited by HeadHunter; 10-13-2018 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:37 AM   #39
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
I'll address the malfunctioning inflator. It's an important piece of equipment that requires proper cleaning and periodic inspection that frequently receives neither.

The most likely source of trouble with them is a malfunctioning Schrader valve that because of wear/corrosion/salt buildup, etc., opens up and then sticks open. Thus causing an unimpeded flow of air into the BC.

The inflator will usually but not always give advanced warnings that its on the way out by being sticky or hard to push open. Another symptom is when your BC slowly fills itself up while its on the boat. When any of those symptoms appear, it's only a matter of time until it craps the bed and possibly puts you into a bad situation.

You should have an extra inflator in a sealed bag along with a couple of zip ties with you so you can change it out at the first sign of trouble. I think they're like $25-$30 so the cost shouldn't be a deterrent.

After each dive trip you should unsnap the inflator hose from the power inflator and rinse the connection. The hose should attach and disconnect easily from the power inflator.

If you're ever in a situation where you have a runaway inflator, in most cases I'd quickly take a couple of stabs at the inflator button which sometimes will let it reseat. If that didn't work I'd immediately drop the gun , stringer, and anything else in my hands (remembering that scuba spearguns with multiple shafts are negative and dropping the gun will further increase your buoyancy) . Immediately get head down while finning down and use both free hands to disconnect the inflator hose from the power inflator. There is no one size fits all in scuba mishaps and you might have at adjust your response to different situations.

The main focus during one of these events should be to NOT get rocketed to the surface. If for whatever reason you can't get it to disconnect, then I'd certainly consider cutting the hose and then crimping it with your hand. That's an advanced move for an inexperienced diver but def worth consideration compared to being embolized on the surface.

Remember that its a LP hose so crimping it off with one hand will stop/drastically reduce the air flow from it. The good news is that BC power inflators are generally a low trouble design that with proper care and inspection will give you good results. Just be prepared to deal with any problems that might incur with them.

Glad the diver survived it and kudo's to him for telling the story. The resulting discussion might help someone else.

Safe Diving, Dan
Great advice Dan
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:11 AM   #40
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

these inflators are so cheap, it makes sense to just carry a spare on the boat. I probably should follow my own advice.

https://www.divegearexpress.com/45-d...power-inflator

Also, I will spray the collar on the hose with WD-40 or some oil and I also am pretty diligent (after diving) about dumping the saltwater from the BC and then adding freshwater and draining the freshwater rinse through the inflation button and deflation button.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:16 AM   #41
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
these inflators are so cheap, it makes sense to just carry a spare on the boat. I probably should follow my own advice.

https://www.divegearexpress.com/45-d...power-inflator

Also, I will spray the collar on the hose with WD-40 or some oil and I also am pretty diligent (after diving) about dumping the saltwater from the BC and then adding freshwater and draining the freshwater rinse through the inflation button and deflation button.
Thanks for posting that link - ordering one now.
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:13 AM   #42
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Schrader valve tool kit is cheap. It's cheap to take it out, rinse, and replace it periodically.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-C-System-...wSg:rk:23:pf:0
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:03 PM   #43
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

https://www.divegearexpress.com/infl...l-w-o-ring-kit
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:06 PM   #44
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

I had the good fortune to have recruited a good dive trainer. He covered this in class as an uncontrolled accent. Turn fin up, head down and kick like heck to control the rate of accent.
Never had to do it but it was there if I needed it.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:12 PM   #45
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Re: Scuba incident/accident/Rescue via USCG Florida Middle Grounds 08/16/2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
I'll address the malfunctioning inflator. It's an important piece of equipment that requires proper cleaning and periodic inspection that frequently receives neither.

The most likely source of trouble with them is a malfunctioning Schrader valve that because of wear/corrosion/salt buildup, etc., opens up and then sticks open. Thus causing an unimpeded flow of air into the BC.

The inflator will usually but not always give advanced warnings that its on the way out by being sticky or hard to push open. Another symptom is when your BC slowly fills itself up while its on the boat. When any of those symptoms appear, it's only a matter of time until it craps the bed and possibly puts you into a bad situation.

You should have an extra inflator in a sealed bag along with a couple of zip ties with you so you can change it out at the first sign of trouble. I think they're like $25-$30 so the cost shouldn't be a deterrent.

After each dive trip you should unsnap the inflator hose from the power inflator and rinse the connection. The hose should attach and disconnect easily from the power inflator.

If you're ever in a situation where you have a runaway inflator, in most cases I'd quickly take a couple of stabs at the inflator button which sometimes will let it reseat. If that didn't work I'd immediately drop the gun , stringer, and anything else in my hands (remembering that scuba spearguns with multiple shafts are negative and dropping the gun will further increase your buoyancy) . Immediately get head down while finning down and use both free hands to disconnect the inflator hose from the power inflator. There is no one size fits all in scuba mishaps and you might have to adjust your response to different situations.

The main focus during one of these events should be to NOT get rocketed to the surface. If for whatever reason you can't get it to disconnect, then I'd certainly consider cutting the hose and then crimping it with your hand. That's an advanced move for an inexperienced diver but def worth consideration compared to being embolized on the surface.

Remember that its a LP hose so crimping it off with one hand will stop/drastically reduce the air flow from it.

The good news is that BC power inflators are generally a low trouble design that with proper care and inspection will give you good results. Just be prepared to deal with any problems that might incur with them.

Glad the diver survived it and kudo's to him for telling the story. The resulting discussion might help someone else.

Safe Diving, Dan
Great reminder about kinking any LP hose to cut off the flow. I recall in my basic class asking a question about having a hose cut by a toothy critter, like a cuda with bad vision, or some other type of failure which would result in severe loss of gas and the instructor pointed out kinking the hose. I often share that tip when the discussion of free flows comes up, but completely forgot in this case.

Out of curiosity I tested it and there's no doubt kinking a rubber hose will cut off the supply. I don't know about these newer braided special hoses that advertise being able to make hard sharp turns for doubles hose routing.

To expand on just how fast the gas in your tank will be released in a catastrophic hose or valve failure, here's a video test conducted by Curt Bowen. Some eye opening information here.

http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com...ngseconds.html


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