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Old 04-04-2017, 02:32 PM   #1
spearq8
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Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

If you have been on spearboard for a while, you might have followed the development of this trigger. This all started a few years ago when I was testing a Pathos gun and encountered serious problems with the trigger. In my investigation of the problems of that trigger, I stumbled upon many other problems that did not only include the Pathos trigger, but basically were inherent in every trigger design. I tried to identify the problems involved and realized that it just was not a fair fight, sears were made of softer material than shafts, and while shafts were disposable ... you are pretty much stuck with the sears in your trigger forever
I am good friends with Mario from Ermessub, and explained to him the problems. Mario already had a patented design with a back roller ... this eliminated issues caused by gouging of the shaft sear made by the sharp notches of hard shafts ... but there was still the problem of galling or scratching of the front surfaces. We tried many different treatments and we got good results with some really exoteric treatments that hardened the surface of the SS. There was diamond or DLC, also Kolsterizing as well as Expanite and some other treatments. Many of the treatments had drawbacks ... once the SS is treated, it become highly susceptible to corrosion. Also some of the treatments were fairly superficial and we were not sure how durable they would be. Then we had the price involved ... it was expensive as a treatment, but also the workflow of making parts and sending them off to different places around the world for treatment and then having them sent back to be built ... was not practical and quite expensive. Mario did some initial tries and they were not very promising, and at one point we almost gave up ... but a few months ago I finally tried a trigger that really worked well. It was still rough but it showed promise. We made a few changes ... then a few weeks ago I received the final polished sample and it really was amazing. Finally a trigger that solves all the problems I wanted solved ... and the result will really change how triggers are made from now on.
I may be biased, but I really think this is easily the best trigger you can get today (it should be available in the very near future). I am quite confident the price will be within the price of an average SS trigger. Here is the final test I made with the trigger a couple of days ago. Again ... I am biased so don't take my word for it ... but I have a feeling something good came out of all the efforts made.
One more thing, I have absolutely no financial affiliation with Ermessub. My involvement in this project was simply to find a solution to problems I felt was inherent with all triggers. I actually spent quite a few thousand dollars of my own money trying different materials and ideas. But I really think it was well worth it and will improve the safety and effectiveness of spearguns and spearfishing in general. Of course I want this to do well as Mario is a good friend and I wish him success in his business. He was close to giving up designing spearfishing equipment as the financial rewards were not good, but we need people like him as they are the true innovators of everything we use and enjoy today.

Here is the test I did just a couple of days ago

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Old 04-04-2017, 07:42 PM   #2
Diving Gecko
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Hey Majd,
Cool that all this came to fruition. I like advances in tech so much that I might even wanna make a dreaded bandgun just to feel how this shoots, haha (I am an air shooter;-)).
Is this the trigger that he will be making in three different lengths? If so, I guess it should be possible to retro fit one of these in many, many handles.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:25 PM   #3
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Very impressive sniping!
Hard to deny the facts
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:34 PM   #4
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

We will be using these triggers in the future for the USA Abellan guns. As you can see, the accuracy at any distance is incredible. And the myth was busted that a classic gun shoots higher at closer distances. I think these super tight consecutive groupings with the cameras rolling should quiet the naysayers.... probably not

We appreciate the countless hours Majd has spent testing these new triggers.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:53 PM   #5
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

That gun is certainly shooting consistently straight to hit the target center at 6 and 7 meters. Has this dual roller mechanism passed the grit test as in being used in shallow, stirred up waters or the gun being dropped on a sandy bottom when cocked?

I note the damage inflicted on the front of the sear tooth in the first trigger mechanism shown, to me that seems to be a consequence of the sear tooth staying up when it should remain depressed after the shot. I expect that is because the sear lever has no biasing spring and the trigger mechanism is relying on the weight of the sear lever to keep it down. Ideally on shaft tail insertion into the sear box the first thing the tail end of the spear should hit is the sear lever backing projection.
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:33 AM   #6
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

No ... no sandy bottom testing ... I actually don't believe in that. You just don't want junk in your mech no matter what mech you use. Having that abrasive stuff in your mech is just asking for trouble. If you do get sand or debris inside, you need to clean out your mech ... no way am I going to test shooting a fully loaded 3 banded gun with junk in there ... someone else needs to do that. I did test about 200 full power shots with this last version though ... and it shot extremely well and never felt there was any problems and when taking the trigger apart under close inspection ... no problems whatsoever. The line release does move a little too forward for my liking, but that can easily be fixed in the next version.

I almost gave up on the front roller idea ... initially the trigger pull would have a "hump" which was similar to the Bleutec roller ... and I hated that as it did not allow for a responsive release. It drove Mario crazy as the other guys testing it thought it was already great and were happy. But in testing the accuracy was very similar to a normal trigger accuracy, the groups were not as tight as I knew they could be. I actually had 8 sears cut for that trigger with a conventional non front roller cut, that I was going to try different hardening treatments on and going to go that route. But Mario did some geometric adjustments and relocated the roller on the last few beta versions and it all clicked. The accuracy went through the roof as the trigger was extremely responsive. To get accuracy you need a very responsive trigger with a very predictable release ... whether you are in a pool fighting the internal water currents or whether you are in the sea fighting a float line tugging on your gun ... or whether you are leading a moving fish ... there is always movement ... and the secret to getting good accuracy is that the shot goes off exactly when your aim is intercepting the target. One micro second of delay or change in location of trigger drop ... will be a large miss on target. This is what I had a hard time communicating with Mario and a few times things got so frustrating that I just was going to give up. Fortunately we didn't give up and the result is this new trigger.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:33 AM   #7
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

How is this new mech different than this one that has been around for 5 years?
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:39 AM   #8
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
No ... no sandy bottom testing ... I actually don't believe in that. You just don't want junk in your mech no matter what mech you use. Having that abrasive stuff in your mech is just asking for trouble. If you do get sand or debris inside, you need to clean out your mech ... no way am I going to test shooting a fully loaded 3 banded gun with junk in there ... someone else needs to do that. I did test about 200 full power shots with this last version though ... and it shot extremely well and never felt there was any problems and when taking the trigger apart under close inspection ... no problems whatsoever. The line release does move a little too forward for my liking, but that can easily be fixed in the next version.

I almost gave up on the front roller idea ... initially the trigger pull would have a "hump" which was similar to the Bleutec roller ... and I hated that as it did not allow for a responsive release. It drove Mario crazy as the other guys testing it thought it was already great and were happy. But in testing the accuracy was very similar to a normal trigger accuracy, the groups were not as tight as I knew they could be. I actually had 8 sears cut for that trigger with a conventional non front roller cut, that I was going to try different hardening treatments on and going to go that route. But Mario did some geometric adjustments and relocated the roller on the last few beta versions and it all clicked. The accuracy went through the roof as the trigger was extremely responsive. To get accuracy you need a very responsive trigger with a very predictable release ... whether you are in a pool fighting the internal water currents or whether you are in the sea fighting a float line tugging on your gun ... or whether you are leading a moving fish ... there is always movement ... and the secret to getting good accuracy is that the shot goes off exactly when your aim is intercepting the target. One micro second of delay or change in location of trigger drop ... will be a large miss on target. This is what I had a hard time communicating with Mario and a few times things got so frustrating that I just was going to give up. Fortunately we didn't give up and the result is this new trigger.
I'm saving up for a custom gun and will definitely make sure it has this trigger.

I am going to have to make a list of "Madj approved" components and gun/shaft/band configurations as a reference for the future.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:48 AM   #9
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tide View Post
How is this new mech different than this one that has been around for 5 years?

I thought I have seen every trigger out there, but I guess some I still haven't seen. Of course the Ermessub back roller is completely different as it uses a free floating roller that gets wedged into a cradle on the shaft sear. On the original video I had the internals of the trigger with description of how it works, but Mario asked me to remove it as it might encourage someone in China to infringe upon his patent. Personally I think if someone wants to copy it, he can just buy one and open it up, but I respect his point of view. Ermessub back roller system had the patent applied in I think 2013 and it was patent pending until 2016 when he got the full patent.

I am no expert in trigger design, but I don't think the roller on the sear notch is a good idea. The roller is sitting on a spindle and this spindle is probably less than 3 mm diameter pin. When you load the shaft, there will be a lot of shear forces on that spindle when you slam the shaft in and also high shear forces when you load the gun and wait for it to shoot ... then again when it shoots off and the shaft notch slides off. If you want to put a thicker pin, you would have to do it by sacrificing the thickness of the roller. Also ... I just am not sure how well the roller will roll with such high tension on it. This is not the pretty tiny tension on front sears ... this has to carry the full band load. On most triggers the entire band load is held by a notch on the shaft sear and that force is transferred to a pin that goes through the shaft sear and into the housing ... usually that pin is around 4mm, but on some guns like the Abellan can go up to 5mm. So I can't see that working well as that small pin has to deal with a lot. With the Ermessub roller the roller drops into a cradle in the shaft sear and thus all the forces are on the roller itself and the cradle on the shaft sear. That is 7mm or up to 8mm thick and very robust. Also during loading the shaft enters and then pushes the shaft sear where the free floating roller will be in the way ... that roller gets pushed along until it finds the cradle in the shaft sear and then it locks. Really an incredibly genius idea that works very well. By the way I am not saying the trigger in the photo will not work well, just pointing out something that I notice and wanted to answer your question about what the differences are. Am interested to know who makes that trigger? Also how does it shoot and why is it not well known?

With the Ermessub double roller trigger, the idea was to match Mario's patented back roller with a front roller similar to what C4, Salvimar, Bleutec and several other trigger manufacturers had. The first simple version took very little time to develop ... but getting something to work and getting something to work exceptionally well are two totally different things. Front Roller triggers are nice, but there is a certain "hump" you feel when you pull the trigger. It is like you have to go over that hump and then the trigger drops. I can shoot such triggers like the C4 and Bleutec really well, but the responsiveness of the trigger is not the same as what this trigger has. I think that is what impressed me the most. I can hone down a SS trigger to perfection and I will get about 10 super crisp and perfect shots ... but then the trigger will start getting scratched and it is downhill from there. Here it was the same crisp trigger pull after over 200 full power heavy loads.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:44 AM   #10
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Cool. I have some of those on order. Trying in a new prototype working on here. I did some basic motion tests with some drawings Mario sent me a while back and I can't see that this design would not work best with a Euro Tang? I understand it may function with American Square notch, but it's most ideal mate is the Euro Tang?
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:16 AM   #11
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Wow that is some impressive shooting.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:12 PM   #12
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

A square cut tail notch produces no downwards force to wipe the free floating roller tooth out of the top of the side slots in the walls of the sear box, especially with the contra-curved slots. If the slots were curved the other way or sloped rearwards to match the sear lever rotation then the roller may be pushed down the side slots by the pressure from the shaft which acts only in the longitudinal direction. In a eurogun the pressure relayed from the bands via the shaft not only acts longitudinally, but at an angle downwards as the sear tooth is sloped, the sear box roof stopping the shaft riding up on the tooth. As the roof cannot budge the spear tail pushes down on the sear lever and creates a loading on the trigger-sear lever interface, which is actually the "sear". In square cut trigger mechanisms that trigger-sear lever interface loading only comes through the torques.

Such changes to the slot orientations may reduce the effectiveness of the roller tooth principle, but may still produce a good result, that is if you need it on a square cut tooth mechanism.

Last edited by popgun pete; 04-05-2017 at 05:29 PM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:30 PM   #13
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

hmmmm.. do I smell another pool test? Euro Tang vs. American Square cut shaft? Majd do you have any Square notch shafts there you could test? Would certainly be twice the mech if it could shoot both shafts equally?
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:34 PM   #14
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tide View Post
How is this new mech different than this one that has been around for 5 years?
If I am interpreting your photo correctly the roller tooth axle is mounted on the sear lever via support tabs on either side which are integral with the sear lever. In the Ermes-Sub mechanism the roller tooth axle is confined by the slots in the side walls of the mechanism housing acting on its axle ends. Support for the roller tooth is via the cradle in the sear lever or cutout that the roller body sits in.
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Old 04-06-2017, 01:14 AM   #15
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Re: Ermessub Double Roller Trigger Test

I have one square cut shaft, but the wrong size and won't fit on the Albacore 130. I could probably hack a square shaft forma a euro shaft with a small file, but I think it is better to let this be tested by others who exclusively use american cut. I would want at least 200 to 300 full power shots, then I would open up the mech and inspect the parts with magnification to understand better how the wear patterns are.

Theoretically it should work as the trigger will just see the square notch as a weird looking euro notch. The cradle on the shaft sear would work the same as the the shaft is installed the roller will lock in its cradle. Now the top of the shaft would be wedged between the top of the 2mm SS housing and the square notch. Of course the fit of a euro cut will be better as the rounded shape of the euro cut would fit snugly on the roller, but I don't think that changes much as the roller will still lock the square notched shaft in place. On firing the back roller will free fall out of the way and the shaft will come out effortlessly. You could say that maybe the sharp edges of the square notch would be sharper than the rounded edges of the euro cut ... and thus on exit this edge has a bigger chance of gouging the roller ... but the roller is dropping out of the way and the shaft is not really riding on top of the roller ... so I doubt it would be much different. Even if the roller would get nicks in it after a long time of usage, I can't see that having any effect on the functionality of the trigger. And let's say if after thousands of shots the trigger roller would get nicked badly enough to need replacement ... you could make that roller a sacrificial part and would take about 15 seconds to replace... and the part itself would be less than $1.

The bigger question is whether you need to change to a smaller roller or keep the same roller as the euro cut. In the first versions an american cut would just not fit the mech as the back part of the american cut shaft was too short. But then I we made the top receiving cut of the mech longer to accept some of the newer Hunt shafts used by the Abellan guns which have the shaft notch way back ... and this allowed the american cut mechs to now fit. There was still the problem of needing a smaller roller for the american cut to engage. But with the latest geometric changes the american cut shaft engages quite easily ... and IMHO I would just do my testing without changing the roller to a smaller size. The nightmare scenario would be someone with a smaller american cut back roller going out and loading a euro shaft in ... which could cause a misfire. Best would be to have one mech that fits both ... or make a separate american cut mech that is obvious by its different color or shape.
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