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Old 08-23-2017, 03:11 AM   #61
gspearguns
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by seal77 View Post
Neven:Bestiarius invert model with bottomside Archimedes pulley (sorry Seal but polispast is no allround accepted )
I hope its a joke and you mean just the word is not accepted?Its true I used for first time the word "polispast",taking it from the compound bows.Thats how we call them here.
But for spearguns " Arhimede" and "Polispast" is the same thing.
No it's not a joke. As I can see you used that and some greeks. Italians not, spanish market not, here in Croatia, Montenegro, Slovenia also not... But who cares. The most important is that gun is doing job as you want. Remember once you wrote here that Arcimedes pulley is good only for loading weights. So what, who cares... Keep moving forward, I like your guns.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:32 AM   #62
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Wonder if the advertisers know or care about that the mass click generators are threads consisting of rasist and conspiratory bs?
i guess not. and cant really see the bigot racist component of SB content disappearing until enough people who are honestly here for the spearfishing knowledge kick up enough of a fuss for admin to find alternative means to generate clicks=cents that apparently enable this forum

SB is an institution, granted - albeit equally well known for all that mostly odious+tedious non-spearfishing stuff on here - and made up of all sorts of personalities and tribes. But surely there's enough politically oriented forums and Disqus sites elsewhere to vent that crap?? Like DG and others I still find it bizarre that SB encourages that rubbish. BUT i continue to find enough learning and sharing on here bout making the most of chasing dinner out in the wild blue yonder, to try and ignore all that shite when i click New Posts. Really though, in this age of hyper-specialised forums, WHY?
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:07 PM   #63
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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@Jon ... I would have sat this one out if it wasn't for you ... you might not be interested in the photos but others are.
I don't mind paying top dollar for quality gear.... but if I had received that mech after forking out that much money, I'd be pissed off. I sure wouldn't have the patience to work on it like you did so

Jon mate, you gotta take it easy on Spearboard and the other forum. I'll be honest, you're the reason it took me so long to sign up here because every thread that involves you is drama. You bait spearq8 into this thread and then play the role of good cop.... please. If your guns had performed well in his pool, you'd be singing a different tune. Look at a picture of your gun builds from 5 years ago to today. Thank him and move on. I think it's hilarious you're tooting rollers and invert rollers even though you don't build them. The only reason you're doing so is to prove spearq8 wrong. I'm in the medical field, everything we do is evidence based. The only evidence I believe at the moment is from him. Cmon mate... its getting embarrassing.

I don't even know spearq8 personally but I have seen footage of him taking some amazing fish with his home made replica carbon wrapped "Abellan 140," the Albacore 130 and pathos railguns. He is faaaaarrrr from a pool spearo . However, he does spend more time in the pool than 99.999% of other spearos on this board and many others. Very generous guy... no bias, spends the time to help others... please don't let the words of the minority deter you from posting more videos and information here spearq8
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:09 PM   #64
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Jon mate, you gotta take it easy on Spearboard and the other forum. I'll be honest, you're the reason it took me so long to sign up here because every thread that involves you is drama. You bait spearq8 into this thread and then play the role of good cop.... please.
As a disinterested observer, I re-read the thread. Jon definitely didn't start shit. Your quote is out of context and your conclusion inaccurate.

As someone who has received a ton of advice from both Majd and Jon in each of my builds (including traditional guns, rollers, and inverted rollers) it seems crazy to question either of their credentials to offer insight based on their experience. I incorporate all the principles for the handles from Majd's posts and also have my sliptip spears based on the Mori custom sliptip spears from one of his accuracy tests. And I base the curves, body styles, and recoil absorption on all my guns based on my Ulusub and Jon's advice. Both devote a ton of time to answering questions and have a lot to offer.

It's pretty much agreed by everyone that the inherent physics involved with double rollers and inverted rollers offer an opportunity to improve on classic guns. The issue then becomes maximizing those advantages and learning from other people's successes and failures so that these advantages are not outweighed by new and complex issues that may arise by the different forces at play. Questioning anyone's curiosity into exploring these new areas is like outright rejecting the first motorcar because your horse can run faster.

I for one read these threads religiously for any new insight I can incorporate into my own builds. I've shot a couple Alemannis. They're outright amazing. I prefer the rollers I've built to the traditional guns. I'm pretty confident that in time that the best rollers and/or inverted rollers will outperform the best traditional guns. And if they don't already, or never do, this is the type of thing that drives innovation which should never be discouraged.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:49 AM   #65
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

@Seal ... At least you now admit that the test was done properly ... just needed an extra booster band?? ... well if you look back at the post on the test I did on your gun, you would have seen that I put up an effort to give you thoughful ways to improve performance ... one of them was to add a booster classic band. But of course you decided the best way to deal with the situation is just blame the one testing the gun not the gun design itself. It is interesting that you have completely moved away from that design. As for not posting results ... I saw the gun on this forum ... I bought into the hype thinking that I would get the most powerful gun on earth ... I told you that my condition would be that I could post results here and I am pretty sure quite a few people remember that as I was mercilessly hassled about information on when I would post results. I am sorry the test results did not live up to your hype, but the proper way to deal with it is look at the design and see where you can improve. I put a lot of thought and effort into how you could improve things and shared it with you.

@Jon ... people like you are the reason why things were stagnant for so long. You want spearguns to be about the mystical powers of a builder (you of course being in that group) ... hidden secrets that only the gun selling gurus have access to ... the only way minions can tap into that is to buy one of their creations. Well ... **** that ... I was never a religious person because I always need evidence to show me that something is true. Moses cut the Red Sea with a stick ... well I was in the Red Sea ... no way am I going to beleive that unless I see that happen in front of me. You think that test results should be based on who made the gun ... if the test does not do well it should all be hush hush. You saw evidence of that Seal gun I tested shooting 9 meters ... well I got the gun and it ain't shooting 9 meters unless you aim 6 feet high. You look at that hacked trigger and all you see is "some slight rust and shadows happening" ... LOL ... I mean really ... what a tool. The amount of BS you can dish out is just incredible. You would be much better off doing what I did and advise Seal to get that shit out and put a high quality mech in there.

This is my take here ... I was spearfishing before I could swim properly. I am also an architect and engineer ... so not really interested in spearguns commerically. I became interested in speargun design when I started hunting crystal clear waters of the Red Sea and my guns just didn't have the power or accuracy to reliably take large dogtooth tuna at distance. I based my first few gun builds on information that I managed to get from forums. I also designed my house with a lap pool ... so it was only natural that I test things since I had the pool right there. I quickly realized that not everything being considered as "general knowlege" was true. I figured the problem was not with the talent of gun builders ... it was more of a problem of people having honest testing that gave evidence of what works and what doesn't. I figured if all those talented people could get a short cut to some real test data ... no BS ... no big fish on a stringer as evidence ... I mean real evidence withough piles of crap to navigate. That would be enough information for a gun builder to dramatically change things. I look at guns 5 years ago and I look at the capabilities of today's guns ... gigantic difference. You don't see any 6 banded massively giant tuna guns anymore ... smaller lighter guns with more power and accuracy are possible. Sure some gun builders were unhappy along the way, but the smart ones embraced the data and improved their product. In your case ... you have the creepiness of taking all the data and making use of it ... yet shit on people that provided it. Not a nice personality trait.

As for roller guns. It would be incredibly stupid of anyone to think I don't follow up on developments. I am pretty sure normal rollers are not the way to go ... what interests me is using a pulley to actually change a constant that was like the speed of light ... the contraction speed of bands. So the technology is sound ... now if we can avoid all the BS and see what test results are showing us, maybe things can move forward. I lost count of how many freebies I got offered to test guns, most of them new invert rollers. Just like classic guns were improved, roller guns will also improve. The improvement will come from people doing the hard work developing new ideas ... accepting poor test data and learning from it ... it will not come from people that just want to sell guns. It is ironic that the actual people that developed invert rollers and vela and fusion and zero are actually the guys I most enjoy chatting with. They don't make ridiculous claims and never once criticized any test I did. They will just point out where they think something can be improved in a gun or how to change a power ratio somewhere. I have been asked to test one of those new guns and within a year I should post results. This will be a real test with real data ... no advertisement BS.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:02 AM   #66
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Azure Recluse, bloody ****in oath you seem to be an expert on me? My guns haven't changed so much in the past 8 years. The 155RH is essentially the 150 Pro Series Model. The majority of those changes came about through feedback from guys using my guns in the field and pool including the Ulusub Test Team which culminated in a more modern design build for Gil Gacula's family. That is really where my current guns got their inspiration. Thanks Gil, Pete, Tony, Peter, etc.

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php...+gacula+ulusub.

Regarding Rollers.. There is a very good chance that I've made Carbon wrapped Rollerguns since before you had your first wet dream, and you have no idea what I'm making or shooting. Fairdinkum mate. So why don't you share something insightful? I don't think anyone has learned a thimble of shit from you?

Majd, I'm the reason why Speargun Development has been stagnant for so long? Really.... listen to yourself sometimes..
I think that your relationship with Seal could have gone differently. I think you were and continue to be disrespectful with him. Obviously he is Super Talented and pushing the envelope of Speargun design in many ways. Obviously he would benefit from better resources. You could have learned a lot with him. He could have learned a lot with you. Maybe it was just two guys speaking third languages to each other. In any case. It was a missed opportunity. Majd, What are you in this for???? I mean you are the first to say that all gun builders eat smoke and mirrors for breakfast and are only interested in profiting, stagnating development, and fooling customers.. But for most of us the driving force is putting a good gun into friend's hands so they can catch fish. You think I don't agonize over every detail when I get negative feedback from a customer? Building spearguns and developing a wide range of products for the spearfishing, swimming, and sporting goods markets is how I support my wife and 3 kids. But what are you in this for? I do want to comment on one thing. You say we don't see a lot of Big Guns anymore 5 bands. etc. But that is just not true. There are plenty of 5 Band Mid HAndles still being used and taking nice fish. The biggest gun I make now is 4 bands. But that's because since the Band Materials changed. I can push that same shaft with less bands. I can actually push that same shaft with 3 bands, but they need to be tied very very tight and breakdown quicker. But ****ing obviously I tested this in a Pool, in the field, and with feedback from ??100+ people? You guys really don't know shit about how some Gun Builders work. I'm making 4 in here today. Ofcourse these 4 will be a little different from the last. Ofcourse, as I hand cut each of these I'm thinking 100% about the design. Hmm could I take 1mm off this to make it swing better. Or could angling this a little more allow bands to sit nicer. The idea that Gun Builders are stagnant and smoke and mirrors is just stupid. I know most of the people I make guns for. I'm sending them a tool for catching fish which I'm making the best I can knowing what I know today. And guys are taking the eyes out of Wahoo at 20'+ on the first shots they are taking with the guns even without Majd's blessing. The lack of respect for Gun Builders here is not shared between those of us with rough hands.

Enough with the Distractions...................................... ......................
Back to the test. People here including but not limited to Majd, have been very vocal about having no confidence in a Roller Platform outperforming a Classic Platform. To me this test and the other test show the Inverted Archiplast System as outperforming a Classic banded set up of similar size in the Power/Speed category. That's all this thread needs to be about. Not everyone's mother****ing dramatic sniveling opinions. Either you are speaking about this test and adding to the knowledge base on Inverted Poliplast Rollers or please shut your pie holes.

Last edited by Behslayer; 08-24-2017 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:39 PM   #67
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

IMO the inverted polipast design is the first that I have seen that I think may have the potential to surpass a properly designed classic gun. There are definitely some pros to the design. I think that once the platform is tested for a couple years and better components are designed, including smaller and more efficient pulleys. When this happens I will certainly consider Seal and Gladiator one of the founding fathers. Nobody on this forum even comes close enough in the amount of testing Majd does. If there is someone who comes close, they certainly don't share their results for the benefit of everyone. I don't think these threads would even exist in the same context today if he decided never to do these testing and sharing on the forums. I hope these internet cock fights don't dissuade him from sharing his test results in the future...it would be a shame and a setback for all the gun builders, hobbyists, and spearos that lurk the forums.
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:56 PM   #68
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

I didn't start this one. I didn't goad Majd into this thread. I put up one of those Star Wars Memes. Big deal. That's the same meme Harry always uses. Majd came in here guns blazing taking shots at Seal like it was the OK Corral. Honestly it caught me a little offguard. I sure as heck wasn't trying to open the door to this kind of scrubbage on my friend Seals' thread.

Nevin, do you have any videos or static testing to share? I think once I had read some speed calculations you had posted. Seal clearly passed the Power Category in his test. He passed Majd's Tuna test at 6mtr. Technically Seal's foam was a little denser. But we'll call it a pass. That's using a 110. What would sure be nice is to also see an Accuracy Test. Would be really nice to see it in motion and showing the reload steps. It sure would be nice to see you and Seal get together and dedicate a weekend to Pool Testing and Video. Me personally I like to also see a good clean view of the Muzzle and different angles of filming. In my own work, I learn so much from watching slow motion side view video focussed right on the muzzle area.
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:54 AM   #69
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Haha fair dinkum, bloody oath and a thimble of sh*#. Didn't know you were an Aussie!

Like I said before, if your guns had performed well in Majds pool... you'd be singing a different tune. Nothing more needs to be said mate. Good luck with future sales, you have a family to support which I understand and respect. When you get some time, give credit where credit is due. Send spearq8 some love I'm no longer participating here so flame me all you want with those personal attacks
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:43 AM   #70
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Just came in for a quick Winge did ya? Nothing to add about Poliplast Speargun Performance? Just here to drop a little turd in between wristys? There's plenty of Pool tests and Field tests online showing my guns. I made 2 guns for Majd many years ago to his spec. Certainly not what I'm making in here today but still nice guns for what they were and when they were built. Perhaps 'Shut yer Pie hole' doesn't translate into Yabo, but essentially it means if all you are going to do here have a winge then please Bugger off ya Wombat.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:06 AM   #71
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
I didn't start this one. I didn't goad Majd into this thread. I put up one of those Star Wars Memes. Big deal. That's the same meme Harry always uses. Majd came in here guns blazing taking shots at Seal like it was the OK Corral. Honestly it caught me a little offguard. I sure as heck wasn't trying to open the door to this kind of scrubbage on my friend Seals' thread.

Nevin, do you have any videos or static testing to share? I think once I had read some speed calculations you had posted. Seal clearly passed the Power Category in his test. He passed Majd's Tuna test at 6mtr. Technically Seal's foam was a little denser. But we'll call it a pass. That's using a 110. What would sure be nice is to also see an Accuracy Test. Would be really nice to see it in motion and showing the reload steps. It sure would be nice to see you and Seal get together and dedicate a weekend to Pool Testing and Video. Me personally I like to also see a good clean view of the Muzzle and different angles of filming. In my own work, I learn so much from watching slow motion side view video focussed right on the muzzle area.

First of all ... I didn't come blazing here ... you know exactly the issue as you were on also on the other thread where he called me a LIAR in big capital letters. Where he claimed that the poor performance was due to me not loading the bands correctly. I don't recall you getting upset about that! I might have let that pass, but ... I spent more than 3 weeks of my free time slaving away and fixing that damned gun so that it could shoot well. Time I could have used to go spearfishing, play with my kids, play golf ... many things. Yet I patiently sat there and set a jig to properly set the angles of his trigger ... changed out the pins and added spacers to make sure the sears lined up to allow a nice pull. Honed the sear angles so they were absolutely crisp. Changed out the spring taken from someone's teeth and put a proper spring. Pulled out all the rollers and smoothed out any areas that were hitting the stock to smoothen the action ... also fixed some pulleys that were not rotating properly. Untied all the bands and re did them properly. Changed out all the rigging to good quality line that would not chaff and hang up on the rollers. Readjusted the wishbone slots so the wishbones would not sink deep. Then I also re-seated the trigger as I just couldn't put a shaft in there without bending the back. I had to re drill holes under the original pin and then pack the old holes with a mix of CF and epoxy and then put a layer of CF to keep the new hole from creeping into the old hole. After doing all that ... I get the gun in the pool ... shoot it to my best ability and only THEN did I post the test and results. That is a gun that I paid for in full and never once asked for a discount, never once did I complain and ask for my money back. Even when he started completely ignoring my emails, I carried on and just considered it a learning experience. But to come out after a year and decide that the problem was never the gun or the gun design ... but rather that I didn't know how to load the gun and that I am lying and faking the test. Man ... that is just ****ed up and definetly puts you in douche bag territory. I don't care who you are or what you do, but learn some etiquette and learn to appreciate the efforts people did for you.

As for you Jon pooling yourself with other gun builders ... please ... I mean really. You think all gun builders are like you?? 99% of gun builders are incredibly decent classy people who love spearfishing and share the same enthusiasm for spearguns as I do. Most of them started as avid spearos and just gravitated to building guns for a living. Being a gun builder has nothing to do with shitty personality traits ... it is called a personality trait for a reason. You want this forum to be all YOU and US ... against ... THEM. I post a test about an Abellan gun that does well in testing ... and I change from good guy to enemy number one. Well ... shit Sherlock... I am sorry the gun did well in testing!!! I put a post up of a 1.6lb pipe gun shooting accurately and passing the penetration test ... and I get flamed mercilessly for putting that that monstrosity up. I get asked to show slow motion video ... show side video ... even then that is not enough and it is just a "pool thing and in the ocean you can't have perfect form so it is not relevant". I then shoot the gun while just holding it with just my thumb and shooting it with a full power 8mm load ... that is shooting a full load with one finger on the handle ... I even shoot the damn gun between my butt cheeks. But still that is not enough confirmation ... why ... because you don't sell pipe guns. You completely miss the original point of the test ... which was to show that there is a new option you can use if you don't want excessive mass to your gun! Seal puts out a video where he is shooting a target at 9 meters ... I get a newer generation gun that the builder says is even more powerful ... I test it .... ummm what happened??? Why no doubts from your side??? Why not ask for slow motion footage ... side angle view from 3 directions??? Do you see yourself more clearly now ???

I am sorry all you guys have to read all this crap. I am generally a positive person and don't like all this drama. But I agree I got baited into this by Jon, and maybe he got more than he expected. So go ahead, beleive what you want ... in my case I think I have every right to be skeptical.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:18 AM   #72
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Just came in for a quick Winge did ya? Nothing to add about Poliplast Speargun Performance? Just here to drop a little turd in between wristys? There's plenty of Pool tests and Field tests online showing my guns. I made 2 guns for Majd many years ago to his spec. Certainly not what I'm making in here today but still nice guns for what they were and when they were built. Perhaps 'Shut yer Pie hole' doesn't translate into Yabo, but essentially it means if all you are going to do here have a winge then please Bugger off ya Wombat.
Again ... very classy. Are you like that in real life or is this just an internet thing. I will agree 100% that you do build extremely nice guns ... actually more than that, they really are works of art! I do have 2 of your guns and every curve, every angle, every little detail is done perfectly. Design wise things evolve and for sure designs can improve. Now if you could just work on your other non gun related stuff, I am sure you would be much better off.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:16 AM   #73
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

More poopoo. Majd, I don't keep track of who is on your black list. I didn't bait you to come into this thread and turn it into a Shitstorm. That was your own choice.

Seal or someone else can simply redo this test again and again and again.. and you can call them all liars and crap on them too. Let me guess.. When an Inverted Poliplast Finalllllly does perform better than a classic banded gun... Majd will have had a part in it. Only then will it be a fact. Only then will the smoke and mirrors have been cleared away......
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Old 08-26-2017, 01:01 AM   #74
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Both Seal AND Jon have trolled this thread from the beginning. Its in plain English text for everybody to read and understand.

Both of you need to stop with all this unnecessary drama. You both make nice guns and you should leave it at that and stop with all this bickering and arguing with S8. I don't know what's worse your bickering or all the BS in the Political section??

Its extremely unprofessional as business people to bicker like you do and call people names in a public forum. I don't see any other gun builders saying the things both of you do! You should take a lesson from them and take the high road instead of getting involved in name calling and kindergarten antics.

Shut the **** up will ya!!!!!!
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Old 08-26-2017, 08:23 AM   #75
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Re: More about the inverted polispast rollers

Woodwardsan, your avatar speaks volumes.. Nobody invited any poopoo in here. We've all heard that said over and over and over again on Multiple Threads that "No Roller Can compete with a well designed Classic Set Up" Right???. This video shows that an inverted Poliplast can definitely compete with a Classic Band set up. That is big news and has never been demonstrated as clearly as it has in these tests.

Re-read this thread and you'll see clearly who was the one who came in here and created a shitstorm. SERIOUSLY.. This thread was all good info and positivism until Post #16.....It wasn't Seal and it wasn't me. If Majd couldn't keep his cool he shouldn't have come into the thread. And talk about unprofessional.. Majd's goal here is apparently to destroy Seal's reputation. **** that.

Honestly nobody expected the level of spitefulness here. A few tuners got their feelings hurt and they'll learn from it and improve.. and for the rest of you, you'll benefit from learning about new Power Platforms. I'm no better or worse than you guys.. If someone jumped into one of Majd's threads and was terribly disrespectful with him. You would allll come to his aid. Several builders who I look up to have contacted me and thanked me for supporting Seal here. Which I would do anyways. But just sos the rest of you knows there are always two sides... it is a balance..

Last edited by Behslayer; 08-26-2017 at 08:58 AM.
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