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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 08-23-2017, 05:58 PM   #16
spearq8
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

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Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
I can go find it if you really want me too back when you first started to notice galling I said it was due to poor geometry on reverse triggers , and you said it wasn't , as for et you can go back and check that too I allready quoted you on one of the times when I brought it up the first time , I said that you pushing them for years is a big reason why so many people ask for them now and have to be educated away from them , I bet I can find hundreds of post from you where you say they increase accuracy .

You do some great testing, but time after time you think you have it figured out and refuse to listen to anyone and then test some more and go 180 in your opinion. I've seen it happen soo many times now that every time you find something "new" I just wait for you to reverse it a year or two later
Again ... with ET I was following what knowledgeable spearos had been telling me at the time (you included). That an ET gun was more accurate because it would control shaft whip ... and that you could push thin shafts as hard as you want without problems and gain more accuracy. I was also told that thick bands or more bands gave you more velocity (still have tons of that 20mm rubber). That one conventional roller band was worth 2 or even 2.5 classic bands. That to control the power of a gun you needed huge amounts of mass ... that an 8mm or 8.5mm shaft would move like it was in slow motion with 3 bands (your exact words were something to do with molases) ... that if you could hit 3 shots into a group the size of a grapefruit at 3 meters it would be phenomenal accuracy ... I could make a big list of things that were "common knowledge" at the time. I think pretty much everyone on this forum is old enough to remember those days. I changed my mind about a lot of those things after testing them in my pool and I made sure that data was publicly shared with as many people as I could find.

So if you want to say that I am guilty of having changed my mind on a lot of things that were common knowlege more than 7 or 8 years ago ... I agree with you 100% and plead guilty as charged.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:28 PM   #17
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

I am not going to say that I invented maximum band stretch guns, plastic trigger sears or rail guns but this was my gun that I built when I was 14 years old. All hand made and all with primitive tools and a lot of time. This gun killed thousands of fish without a single malfunction. I still take it out once a year with friends and everybody has a good laugh watching me blaze away.
Anyway, in the following posts I will show you all some things about reverse triggers and different shafts.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:39 PM   #18
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Here are two guns. One is a Deathstick Speargun that Ken Jones built for me. It is a 100 CM gun and shoots a 140 cm shaft. The trigger is a Daryl Wong trigger and has about 10 years and a few thousand shots on it. By far my favorite gun of all time. It floats with the shaft in and a reel. I can shoot the eyeballs out of a speeding mullet with this gun.
Next to it is one of my new Red Tide Spearguns with a Budak reverse trigger mech. As you can see there is about a 3 inch and stretch advantage. The guns are lined up at the handle so the distance from handle to handle, trigger to trigger is relevant. Both guns are using my shafts that maximize band stretch unlike some other shafts on the market.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:53 PM   #19
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Here are several common Euro shafts side by side. The difference between them is amazing and makes you wonder why they are so poorly designed and the thought of band stretch never occurred. The From top to bottom:
Salvimar -
Salvimar -
Beauchot -
Red Tide -
Rob Allen -
Spearmaster -

Look at the huge difference in band stretch. Combine this with a reverse trigger and you can see what all the hype is about. A 90 cm Red Tide Reef gun has more band stretch than a 100 cm Rob Allen gun, Mako, Rabitech, Aimrite, and just about any gun that uses a traditional mech and poorly designed shafts.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:55 PM   #20
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

I could tighten my shafts up even tighter if my mech was the only mech out there. Since it is not I have to have a little wiggle room to accommodate different mechs, but as you can see it is minimal.
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:05 PM   #21
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

My conclusion is that using every inch of the gun for band stretch is a great idea. As far as all the hate on the reverse triggers, I have yet to encounter issues with the Budak Mech, the Neptonics mech and have never heard anything bad about the Abellan Reverse mech. I recently purchased the Ermes Sub Double Roll Triggers and plan on testing them. My first impression is they are beautifully made and and should perform as designed.
More band stretch with a reliable trigger = Winning
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:34 PM   #22
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

A lot of talk here is about timber guns.

But regarding euro/pipe guns, the reverse mech makes a big difference in 2 areas. (From personal experience, using Rob Allens/Freedivers and Salvimars/Omers).

1. For managing recoil, through the higher handle position, thus improving accuracy and power. (More important on a pipe gun that lacks mass)
2. More range, you notice there is a more violent pull on the bungee at the end of the shot.

Despite this, my riffe euro ET is my favorite rubber gun, so quiet, so easy to load etc.... and a standard mech.
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:40 PM   #23
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Lagfish, I like the way you think. Refreshing. Sure we've discussed various surface hardening treatments. I don't think I've heard of 90HRC though. That's pretty hard. Nice too because as a Surface treatment it will not make Brittle.

Galling. I'm not sure anyone here was the first one to recognize Galling in Trigger Sears. But it is worth mentioning that a lot of those galling issues can be attributed to sears being laser cut and creating an HAZ zone which is more brittle, crumbly, and prone to galling. Waterjet or casting do not have this issue though some metals are more prone to galling. I like the idea of 17-4PH or other heat treated hardened sears, but at the same time I wonder about anything Heat Treated losing some of it's ductility and becoming brittle. Another thing to consider is whether their might be any reactions between two metals for example if a 17-4PH Heat Treated Roller is used on a 316 or 304 Pin in a 316 or 304 Housing, could there be some kind of corrosion which could at the least keep a roller from spinning smoothly? I do think anything to do with Spearfishing which is Heat Treated should be Polished for best pitting resistance.

All this talk of micro adjustments in Spearfshing gear is good, but the elephant in the room is that the biggest improvements in Classic spearguns over the past few years has been Primeline deciding to offer Small Id Band materials.. the gains from that are much greater than any of the inches or mm gained elsewhere. To my knowledge nobody here had anything to do with their decision to make Small ID Bands..

In the end it's all a balance. We can get 20' of range on a 120cm gun. We can get 25'+ on a 140cm gun. You aren't going to want to use a 120cm gun when the vis allows a longer gun. You also aren't going to want 25' of range on a 120.. Me personally, I hate chest loading.. so you max out your band stretch. then your gun is a pain in the ass to load especially if it's long.. so then you have to add a mid point and load in two steps. It's all a balance.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:51 PM   #24
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

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Jason,

The Abellan trigger is incredibly smooth and light. Not in any way tight. Doesn't fit the description of reverse mech's you grouped into one single category (minus the new double roller).

I agree that if you don't have the shaft fins to match the mech you are wasting your time and money. You're also throwing a longer shaft for no reason.

For the most part I see divers over and over who just don't know the equipment as well as the people discussing guns in this forum. A majority, I'd say over 75%, of guys I run into randomly diving (not just locally, everywhere) don't have the right shaft matched to their gun, don't tie their own bands, don't know what diameter bands they have, don't know what mech they have, etc.

We get caught up in these detailed discussions because we love it but most people just grab a "speargun" and go shoot a "fish." It doesn't go much further than that.
The abellan may be a great mech - I never tried it. I pretty much am using the neptonics rev mech for my example.
There are dozens of different companies with their own proprietary mechs maybe some are great.
I am going to buy a couple of those roller mechs for my own amusement - and if they are as easy to install as they look with those top screws - who knows - i may get used to paying double and use them anyway.
I am NOT against ALL reverse mechs - I have one on my personal gun - but it really doesn't perform as well as I would like.
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:49 AM   #25
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

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Has anyone tried DLC (diamond like carbon) coating the trigger sears? Galling happens more likely when the two friction materials are the same material or similar hardness. DLC raises the hardness of the surface to above 90 Rockwell C, lowers the coefficient of friction to 0.1, and doesn't corrode. It costs about $1500 minimum for a batch but you can probably fit like 100 sears into a batch.

Most of the black Panerai watches use this coating.
If you followed my posts on trigger development you would see that DLC was one of the treatments I tried. But at 1 micron it did not work well. Big improvement but not perfect. Maybe with a thicker coat it would work well. Best treatment that worked well for me was Kolsterizing. Galling is nothing new with SS ... this was a very common problem with SS bolts where once you tightened the bolt the nut would cold weld and you wouldn't be able to unscrew it. Untreated 304 or 316 is probably just not the right material for speargun trigger sears especially when you are using hard carbon or 17-4 precipitation hardened shafts.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:41 AM   #26
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Jason, one thing I noticed was that Reverse Triggers with a Spring do have a shorter, more abrubt Breakpoint. I think you had tried some of those Reverse Mechs which Tinman made. Those were with a torsion spring and that in itself did allow for a longer and smoother pull?
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:48 PM   #27
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

The short line release tabs is one of my least favorite things about the reverse mechs. The butt of the gun is the area where added mass has the least impact on the ability to swing the gun through the water. I would hate to leave that part narrow to accomodate a short line release or have some complicated setup where the line wraps at sharp angles.
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:55 PM   #28
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

I don't mind that.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:10 PM   #29
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

I have AISI 316 (A4) rev mechs on my guns. No hardening threatments, no changing of chemical properties, nothing. I'm using them for years with no problem. Geometry, clean and well done touching surfaces and lever lenght will make your rev mech soft, or on other hand if is not done like it should be, too hard when triggering.
High temperature (laser cutting, grinding, etc.) can change metal properties and make damage on touching surfaces. So you need to be careful and know what you are doing when you are making mech.

In the past I had problems with rusting shafts because touching surfcace with mech was rusting. They usualy have good properties (bending, etc) but it is good to take them out from mech when storing gun.

And also, it is good to wash mech with fresh water after diving.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:18 PM   #30
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Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

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I keep asking Santa for a machine shop in key west with a cnc waterjet - but all I get is Tshirt shops. F#$K
Have you tried Bigbluesaw.com? It's about $150 to have them waterjet you your own designs and you can try all the different designs you'd want on a single sheet.
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