Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > Spearfishing Gear > All About Guns

All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-30-2017, 09:25 PM   #61
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,836
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavachi View Post
yep - can redrill the rear screw hole ~10mm further forward to free up some rear stock real estate. as supplied centre of rear screw hole to trigger pull is approx 73mm, per att pic

anyone know the distance on the Double Roll SHORT mech?
The short version is 65.6 mm long while the Long version is 73.5 mm. More important is line release to end of trigger distance ... for Long it is just under 60mm while the short is 45.26 ... so ... you lose about 1.5cm of band stretch ... really not that much at all. If using a shaft that is 7.2mm or less diameter you only need about 120cm of band stretch to get a shaft going to TV with 2 x 14mm small ID bands. Now if you move to around 8mm ... that extra 1.5mm will be more useful as even at 380% with 2 x 14.5mm will not get a 160cm shaft with 135cm to TV. Go to 8.5mm and even 3 x 14.8mm bands at 380% will also not get you to TV. But really ... we are all splitting hairs. Take a look at GR's new shafts or the new Hunt shafts used by Abellan ... just changing to a shaft like that can get you a solid extra 5cm. But people are gready and we always want more ! For the bigger guns I will use the Long ... for the smaller guns using 7mm shafts I am using the short.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2017, 09:25 PM   #62
kavachi
the deeper the blue.....
 
kavachi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 281
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
if you look at my Albacore test you will see I bent the trigger a little.......You can bend the trigger on a vise by just adding a tiny bit of pressure while bracing it.
.....easier than dremelling a whole new trigger! thanks Majd
kavachi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2017, 09:45 PM   #63
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,836
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlestomp View Post
American vs. euro may not be an issue for someone like yourself with an intimate understanding of the trigger's functionality, but for the general low-volume builder it's a big deal. I love the idea of the improvements in the design, but would never purchase one and then count on my own modifications to make it work perfectly for American shafts. My metalworking skills (and understanding of the physics behind trigger mechs) are a far cry from my woodworking skills and general understanding behind physics involving recoil, shaft flight, etc.

Not knocking it at all. Just hoping these go into production with modifications for American shafts made by people such as yourself to make sure that its operating at 100%.

Long story short. I want one.

I really didn't want it to sound like that ... just that too much stuff was being jumbled around and to be honest even I got a little confused. The point I was trying to make is that a shaft or sear notch does not define a trigger. A conventional trigger can be made either american or euro by simply changing one small part in the trigger ... which is the shaft sear. Of course I don't expect anyone to change that manually ... just pointing out the only functional difference is how the shaft notch interacts with the trigger sear. It would be wrong to consider a reverse trigger to be a Euro trigger as by simply changing the shape of the shaft sear on the trigger it can also become an american trigger. Of course there might be a tiny bit of additional clearance for a square cut trigger as the shaft split end is about .15mm more ... but that doesn't change the fact that they are function pretty much the same. Trigger height to track mating is just as important in american cut as it is for euro cut.

As I have mentioned previously I haven't personally tested the trigger with square notch. Someone else with very high credentials has done that and it seems to actually work perfect with square notch.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2017, 09:51 PM   #64
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,836
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manoa matt View Post
Those mechanisms appear to show a roll pin with very thin wall thickness. OK for the trigger stop and coil spring mount roll pin at the front. The roller sear roll pin is what appears troubling.
Yes that concerned me as well. But the way the trigger works is that the roller locks on a cradle on the shaft sear ... so the only function of that pin is orientation for the roller ... it doesn't hold any load ... the load is held by the roller and shaft sear which then transfer the load to the shaft sear pin ... which is a solid 4mm. I know it is difficult to visualize but trust me it is even more difficult to explain.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2017, 10:08 PM   #65
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,836
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
Well yeah, it works fine on the AD because by comparison that handle sits pretty low. ...it's just built such that it looks high. I ordered several of the short version, but in looking at the pictures it seems like it's going to give up all the space on the gun that I gained by using a reverse mech. I am reserving an open mind, though, and will report an honest opinion. ...until I have shot it for half a decade, 200 days a year with xx,xxxx trigger pulls with no failures or problems, however, I'm not going to declare it the savior of all trigger mechs. ... I think declaring the reverse trigger mech "solved" is kind of like stating enclosed tracks "solved" the issue of shaft whip. I am a scientist by profession, and I just don't believe the talk and personal attacks that have gone down around here lately. It's kind of sad, really.

Yes, I have built and continue to build 160cm guns shooting 8.5mm shafts. Just haven't posted them yet. I have found it nice to carve out the top of the loading butt, since it actually sits above the mech and shaft, to give a beautiful sight picture for aiming. ...it is also very aesthetically pleasing. This is an interesting question and pretty high level, because I don't think it has ever been asked around here before. ...and I would guess the reason is it has never been an issue before. We're pushing the handles higher every day, but you have to be willing to put in the sweat and work and calculations to make it happen.

God ... I sure hope I don't get blamed for using ET guns again Or using thick regular ID bands ... or using low handled guns ... or causing reverse triggers with poor geometry that gall ...

I do agree about the trigger though ... for me it is solved in the sense that I finally have a trigger that has a predictable trigger pull every time ... over and over again. No change in trigger pull effort ... no change in break off point. Of course it is new, but the fundementals seems sound. Who knows ... maybe in a few years we will look back at things and see things differently.

High handle ... yes ... if only more people could get to see what it is like to shoot a gun with a properly setup handle on a high powered gun. An 8.5mm shaft recoil feels like a 7mm load on a low handled pipe gun. You can add power all you want and it will all still be controllable. There is one little problem though ... you need to remember to hold on to the gun so the shaft doesn't yank the gun out of your hand when it reaches the end of the shooting line!
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 02:43 AM   #66
gspearguns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 202
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Yes there is about .82mm extra space on top and that could be used to add to the top of sear back and this way it engages the line release earlier. I actually think that you can go .5mm up with no problems. But Mario says that in the bending process he needs that tolerance ... I have no clue what the tolerances are for bending so I will go with that. I don't know which line release you have, but there has been a slight change on that. The new one engages much better ... but you have to slightly unscrew the Line release screw and then tighten it again while seeing how the action is. You can get it working perfectly. I know this is going to be a problem as I think 1 out of 10 people will manage to do that without problems ... so that is why we want the spring to work. At the moment the spring is a little too thick but now that has changed and is much lighter. I need to test it in the pool to make sure that it doesn't affect shaft flight or accuracy. Most likely all the new triggers will have springs ... personally I will never put one on. I am used to the Abellan trigger and just put the front of gun up when loading and gravity will pull the line release back.

As for trigger sear shape being a little forward ... again I agree and if you look at my Albacore test you will see I bent the trigger a little. The thing is, very very few people realize how to put a handle high up and rotate it ... which causes your trigger finger to be further back. Most people think that a handle mod is just an ergonomic handle ... it is not. A properly designed high handle is a game changer. Mario has to sell these and if you look at a C4 trigger or an OB trigger ... those things are way up front because it seems that most people like to have a full finger around the trigger. So if you made the trigger that works really well with a high handle design then there will be over reach and people will complain. You can bend the trigger on a vise by just adding a tiny bit of pressure while bracing it.
Line release is not a problem, just trigger have to be angled backward. That's my opinion.
On my own trigger mechanism line release works fine without any springs, but mass distribution on it is also done that way that speargun have to be just a little angled on that side and it is immediately in right position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6M...e=youtu.be&t=8
gspearguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 06:04 AM   #67
Dr.P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 193
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
God ... I sure hope I don't get blamed for using ET guns again Or using thick regular ID bands ... or using low handled guns ... or causing reverse triggers with poor geometry that gall ...

I do agree about the trigger though ... for me it is solved in the sense that I finally have a trigger that has a predictable trigger pull every time ... over and over again. No change in trigger pull effort ... no change in break off point. Of course it is new, but the fundementals seems sound. Who knows ... maybe in a few years we will look back at things and see things differently.

High handle ... yes ... if only more people could get to see what it is like to shoot a gun with a properly setup handle on a high powered gun. An 8.5mm shaft recoil feels like a 7mm load on a low handled pipe gun. You can add power all you want and it will all still be controllable. There is one little problem though ... you need to remember to hold on to the gun so the shaft doesn't yank the gun out of your hand when it reaches the end of the shooting line!
Was not blaming you for anything.
Dr.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 11:00 AM   #68
Behslayer
Senior Member
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,666
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Dr. P I think the newer "Short Model" might fit better into your palm.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0924.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	127.0 KB
ID:	235168   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0925.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	125.3 KB
ID:	235169   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0916.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	127.0 KB
ID:	235170  
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 11:35 AM   #69
Dr.P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 193
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Dr. P I think the newer "Short Model" might fit better into your palm.
That's what I ordered. Just learned today they've been sitting in Italy for a full month after accepting my money. ...starting off on my sh!t list. Look forward to receiving them one day.
Dr.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:04 PM   #70
Hatch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Sorry to chime in so late to this discussion, but I have been using the Neptonics Reverse Mechs in my Amero, Euro, and Rollers, and Rhino series with no problems at all. I don't see all the fuss and quite frankly I don't think it is cool to bash a business with a solid product for nothing. This mech is strong, as I use it on my Rhino Series Speargun with 4 16mm bands without a single incident of slipping or tight trigger pulling. The line release is solid and returns to original position, without slip, every single time. I have over 1000 guns out there with this mech in them and it has performed perfectly. Not to mention their customer service is top notch. I see no reason to bash this product and I have been very very satisfied.
Hatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:24 PM   #71
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,836
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
Was not blaming you for anything.
Yes I know ... was sort of tongue in cheek. I actually have looked carefully at all the pictures you posted of your guns, and I can't help but smile and think you really nailed it. Maybe I would put a friction layer on the handle, but that is just a personal thing. That is what I would consider a modern high performance speargun. I am pretty sure you could shoot that gun at full load while holding the gun with only your thumb. That is what it is all about ... totally remove any leverage recoil has on shaft exiting your track and get the shaft out as stable as possible. Remove that and you have can freely add as much power as you want. This is true with any speargun, whether mid handle or roller or whatever ... it is all about getting the shaft out as stable as possible.

As for the trigger arriving late ... August ... Italians ... just not a good mix. Mario is a good guy and you don't have to worry. His brother sends the stuff from Italy. Italy basically shuts down in the summer and they actually get offended if you ask them to work then. This happens if you try to order anything from there at that time. I am in contact with Mario regularly and will be happy to help out if needed.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:25 PM   #72
Behslayer
Senior Member
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,666
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

X2. as I've already said. We have put some hurting on those Neptonics Reverse mechs. I've had them on Rental and FieldTest Guns loaded hot for 3 band Rear Handles in Panama for several seasons, and guys manage to make some good shots too.

I'd sure like to see a Neptonics Reverse Mech with Wings. I would help them test those.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	17968036_10212882380322345_1043755747_o.jpg
Views:	45
Size:	150.5 KB
ID:	235171  
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:27 PM   #73
Behslayer
Senior Member
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,666
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Majd there's lot of Rail guns which have the leverage recoil removed but there's another ingredient which helps.. the M word....
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:29 PM   #74
Behslayer
Senior Member
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,666
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

That being said Mr Hatch these ermes mechs are particularly Smoooth. there's no denying that. it's like they poured a cup of smooth on this.
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:47 PM   #75
Dr.P
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 193
Re: reverse mechs... tell me why again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
Yes I know ... was sort of tongue in cheek. I actually have looked carefully at all the pictures you posted of your guns, and I can't help but smile and think you really nailed it. Maybe I would put a friction layer on the handle, but that is just a personal thing. That is what I would consider a modern high performance speargun. I am pretty sure you could shoot that gun at full load while holding the gun with only your thumb. That is what it is all about ... totally remove any leverage recoil has on shaft exiting your track and get the shaft out as stable as possible. Remove that and you have can freely add as much power as you want. This is true with any speargun, whether mid handle or roller or whatever ... it is all about getting the shaft out as stable as possible.

As for the trigger arriving late ... August ... Italians ... just not a good mix. Mario is a good guy and you don't have to worry. His brother sends the stuff from Italy. Italy basically shuts down in the summer and they actually get offended if you ask them to work then. This happens if you try to order anything from there at that time. I am in contact with Mario regularly and will be happy to help out if needed.
I appreciate the kind words. You'll be excited to see the next batch : )

...I'm just kind of being a dick about the delay, I don't really care. I'm just waiting to drop them into some big guns. I emailed him and he was prompt to get back... something about a brother and vacation, hard to tell with the language barrier. I'm just used to driving across the street to neptonics to pick up 10 triggers. Having said that, in the quantity I ordered the ermes mechs, they were basically the same price, so if they ever arrive and work well it is a viable option.

I do agree with Mike's sentiment to some degree. All I was saying earlier is that I'm not going to be retrofitting my entire arsenal with a new to the market trigger before it has really been through the fire. ...and I will be happy to lite the flame. I doubt I've ever missed a fish on account of my neptonics mechs, and I've certainly never had a failure. Having said that, if there is truly improvement to be had, I am neither stubborn nor set in my ways. I'm genuinely excited to drop these in a few of my builds.
Dr.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:44 AM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com