Spearing Jew Fish...Again

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by Chiung

Second - What does it matter what jewfish eat if their population has rebounded to the point that the SEDAR, way back 5 or so years ago, stated the following?

From SEDAR 6 Stock Assessment Report 1. Goliath Grouper http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/down...df?id=DOCUMENT

"We believe the best advice at present for managing the U.S. goliath grouper population should be predicated on the results of the base model (Figures 4 and 5). These indicate that there is about a 50% chance that the population will have recovered to ~s50% by 2006 and about a 95% chance that it will recover by 2012."

From 2007 SEFSC Goliath Status Memo http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/down...df?id=DOCUMENT

Chiung, you keep posting up over and over again the top part of a NOAA memo. Before I ask anyone in the scientific community about it, please clarify your point in view if these definitions of overfishing versus overfished:

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/201...ocs/report.pdf

Stocks identified in this report are characterized under two broad categories: (1) subject to overfishing and (2) overfished. A stock that is subject to overfishing has a fishing mortality (harvest) rate above the level that provides for the maximum sustainable yield (i.e., rate of removals is too high). A stock that is overfished has a biomass level below a biological threshold specified in its fishery management plan (i.e., the population is too low).

Which category do believe Goliath Grouper are under?

Or, are you saying they are not under either category and have fully recovered in 2012 as predicted above?

If so, how can you be sure if the current scientific stock assessment has not be completed yet?

[Chiung]

To be honest Tony, I find it hard to continue to discuss this issue in good faith given that I have been accused of making a personal attack on another while I seem to be the victim of multiple personal attacks which remain unaddressed.

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by Chiung

Are my opinions, questions, and contributions to this (hopefully civil on my part) discussion not welcome? If so, please delete my account post-haste as I would not like to unsettle anyone on here.

Chiung, that is a "flee the discussion" approach. Is it not obvious that posters (not just me) on this thread challenging some of your opinions is of value? Otherwise, would your comments not be ignored?

Your civility is indeed appreciated by me.

[plngl]

when u use a powerhead you always get your shaft back, i dont know the reciepe im just saying

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by Chiung

To be honest Tony, I find it hard to continue to discuss this issue in good faith given that I have been accused of making a personal attack on another while I seem to be the victim of multiple personal attacks which remain unaddressed.

Chiung, as you well know the Internet can be a rough and tumble place.

Please don't take anyone's comments too personally. I have often seen a pattern promulgated by some that basically says that certain scientists are liars and I think that is so wrong on many levels. Just like you and me, scientists are imperfect human beings who are trying their best to get at the scientific truth. I have seen some of their hypotheses invalidated by the data achieved through the rigors of the "Scientific Method." They don't take it personally and run away. They stand up, develop new hypotheses for testing and try again.

Just as I know you are a great guy who helps at the BBO weigh in and makes many positive contributions to spearboard, I also know many of the scientists (not just GG researchers, but shark, lionfish and other species) take their professions seriously and yet have to deal with the strong opinions of Internet theorists while carrying on with their heads held high knowing in their hearts that they are seeking truth.

Let's all give them a chance to deliver their data and complete their work before drawing any conclusions is all I am saying.

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by plngl

when u use a powerhead you always get your shaft back, i dont know the reciepe im just saying

That is a brilliant comment for the potential banning of powerheads that SAFMC was recently taking up, but temporarily tabled.

[hammerhead786]

To quote George Bush... "It's fuzzy math"

Tony your scientists are using "Fuzzy science"

The sheeple are easy to baffle with BS and they are so hungry for it...

There is no possible way Jew fish as a population are sustaining themselves on crabs, period. That is absurd. Your boys are studying a small number of Jew fish relative to the total population of Jew fish. They are not showing the size/weight of the fish pumped out. They are studying them in a small area relative to the area these fish are found in mass numbers. Ive got more than 30 years of diving the east and west coast of FL and the Bahamas. I have seen Jew fish eat more times than you've fed us a bunch of your righteous BS on this board...well maybe not that many but thousands of times...and they were all eating fish a handful took lobsters. I talked to a good friend of mine who is in his 80's and was a commercial fisherman here all his life. He told me every Jew fish they cut open was full of fish. Mainly grunts and snappers. Now you for sure would have to know more than a guy who spent his entire life commercial fishing here and is in his 80's. I know your science guys do to I'm educated too Tony. That's one of the reasons you can't fill my mind with your endless politically motivated dribble or insult me with your condescending remarks. Plain and simple you are a politician and you have to always be right.

Sticking a hose down a some Jew fishes mouths in a small area isn't telling us much, over all on the species nor is it teaching us the Jew fishes diet as a population. How many jew fish are there in total off the coasts of FL vs what is being sampled?

I think the best study these brainiacs did was the proven over fishing of the Atlantic red snapper. Fantastic dating crunching there...

[jfjf]

Originally Posted by Chiung

Don't you know that was "bycatch"? Fuzzy indeed

Sorry jfjf, I didn't want to draw a parallel but since hammer opened the door......for what it's worth I think there was nothing wrong with your two'fer, although it may have been a technical.

So your hypothetical scenario is that it is legal to shoot jewfish with a speargun and allow them to die and rot... Correct? I think the INTENT of the law is that this is prohibited since they are trying to protect the population of jewfish and promote a recovery. Pretty simple concept.

Now, for the situation (non-hypothetical) where I personally shot two gag grouper with one shot on accident... I think the intent of the law is pretty clear there as well. My son and I worked together to harvest those two fish and he provided assistance in knifing each fish, since I had one in each hand. When the two of us ascended with one grouper each, I think that was clearly within the INTENT of the law. There was no way I could undo or release either fish because they were mortally wounded. It would have made absolutely no sense to throw one of the gags away and then allow my son to shoot a third grouper on his own.

Possibly it was a technical violation, but it was the ethical thing to do and it was consistent with the INTENT of the law. Simple too ..

Who cares if they modify the language of a statute to reflect that it is illegal to freeshaft jewfish!...We all know it is "against the rules" and there is no way they can enforce a new law anyway.

The whole line of discussion is silly and trivial, while the bad publicity associated with one speared jewfish has the potential for serious harm.

[hammerhead786]

jfjf clearly accidentally shooting 2 gags with your gun in one shot was a violation of the regs and by your posted account of it all. The fact that your son helped knife the fish means nothing. Taking possession of the second fish was were you and your son clearly broke the law. The proper and legal thing to do was to leave the other gag on the bottom. Call LT Bingham of FWC and ask him yourself! I don't make the fishing regulations. If you are unhappy with them for whatever reason it is no fault of mine. You decided your moral decision should over ride the letter of the law in this case.

ON the jew fish shooting It is obvious to me we don't know all the facts. We have a jew fish with a RA spear in its head ( a fine shaft and a great company may I add ). That's all we know. This shooting could have been an accident. It could have been in self defense. It could have been a mistake. We do not know! ...and here's Tony talking more dribble about facts... Seems he only likes facts when they are in favor of his views.

Anyway, jfjf it's nothing personal. I respect you and I think you are a good guy/spearo overall. I just wanted to point out your reg infraction like you have to so many others on here. It is what it is...

[jfjf]

Originally Posted by hammerhead786

jfjf clearly accidentally shooting 2 gags with your gun in one shot was a violation of the regs and by your posted account of it all. The fact that your son helped knife the fish means nothing. Taking possession of the second fish was were you and your son clearly broke the law. The proper and legal thing to do was to leave the other gag on the bottom. Call LT Bingham of FWC and ask him yourself! I don't make the fishing regulations. If you are unhappy with them for whatever reason it is no fault of mine. You decided your moral decision should over ride the letter of the law in this case.

ON the jew fish shooting It is obvious to me we don't know all the facts. We have a jew fish with a RA spear in its head ( a fine shaft and a great company may I add ). That's all we know. This shooting could have been an accident. It could have been in self defense. It could have been a mistake. We do not know! ...and here's Tony talking more dribble about facts... Seems he only likes facts when they are in favor of his views.

Anyway, jfjf it's nothing personal. I respect you and I think you are a good guy/spearo overall. I just wanted to point out your reg infraction like you have to so many others on here. It is what it is...

It is illegal to drive 80 mph on the Florida Turnpike, but if I had a woman in labor in the back seat... I would probably speed on the way to the hospital too.

I am such a bad ass.

[Trailrunner]

" I talked to a good friend of mine who is in his 80's and was a commercial fisherman here all his life. He told me every Jew fish they cut open was full of fish. Mainly grunts and snappers."

Kind of hard to argue with that statement from HH. Would be interesting if BarnacleBill or Summerland Key (whoever was the big time Jew Fish Spearo) would chime in on this issue. I have seen pictures where they shot dozens (or hundreds) of Jew Fish (back when it was legal). And since Commercial Guys always gut their fish pretty much immediately, I would guess they have a very accurate picture of what Jew Fish of all sizes dined on. Would be interesting to know if it is primarily the Shameface Crabs or Fish.

[osprey]

Originally Posted by hammerhead786

To quote George Bush... "It's fuzzy math"

Tony your scientists are using "Fuzzy science"

The sheeple are easy to baffle with BS and they are so hungry for it...

There is no possible way Jew fish as a population are sustaining themselves on crabs, period. That is absurd. Your boys are studying a small number of Jew fish relative to the total population of Jew fish. They are not showing the size/weight of the fish pumped out. They are studying them in a small area relative to the area these fish are found in mass numbers. Ive got more than 30 years of diving the east and west coast of FL and the Bahamas. I have seen Jew fish eat more times than you've fed us a bunch of your righteous BS on this board...well maybe not that many but thousands of times...and they were all eating fish a handful took lobsters. I talked to a good friend of mine who is in his 80's and was a commercial fisherman here all his life. He told me every Jew fish they cut open was full of fish. Mainly grunts and snappers. Now you for sure would have to know more than a guy who spent his entire life commercial fishing here and is in his 80's. I know your science guys do to I'm educated too Tony. That's one of the reasons you can't fill my mind with your endless politically motivated dribble or insult me with your condescending remarks. Plain and simple you are a politician and you have to always be right.

Sticking a hose down a some Jew fishes mouths in a small area isn't telling us much, over all on the species nor is it teaching us the Jew fishes diet as a population. How many jew fish are there in total off the coasts of FL vs what is being sampled?

I think the best study these brainiacs did was the proven over fishing of the Atlantic red snapper. Fantastic dating crunching there...

Post of the year! So true on all levels! Shameface crabs lol

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by hammerhead786

To quote George Bush... "It's fuzzy math"

Tony your scientists are using "Fuzzy science"

The sheeple are easy to baffle with BS and they are so hungry for it...

There is no possible way Jew fish as a population are sustaining themselves on crabs, period. That is absurd. Your boys are studying a small number of Jew fish relative to the total population of Jew fish. They are not showing the size/weight of the fish pumped out. They are studying them in a small area relative to the area these fish are found in mass numbers. Ive got more than 30 years of diving the east and west coast of FL and the Bahamas. I have seen Jew fish eat more times than you've fed us a bunch of your righteous BS on this board...well maybe not that many but thousands of times...and they were all eating fish a handful took lobsters. I talked to a good friend of mine who is in his 80's and was a commercial fisherman here all his life. He told me every Jew fish they cut open was full of fish. Mainly grunts and snappers. Now you for sure would have to know more than a guy who spent his entire life commercial fishing here and is in his 80's. I know your science guys do to I'm educated too Tony. That's one of the reasons you can't fill my mind with your endless politically motivated dribble or insult me with your condescending remarks. Plain and simple you are a politician and you have to always be right.

Sticking a hose down a some Jew fishes mouths in a small area isn't telling us much, over all on the species nor is it teaching us the Jew fishes diet as a population. How many jew fish are there in total off the coasts of FL vs what is being sampled?

I think the best study these brainiacs did was the proven over fishing of the Atlantic red snapper. Fantastic dating crunching there...

Originally Posted by osprey

Post of the year! So true on all levels! Shameface crabs lol

Oh Lord, the heavy intellectual rationale is on on full display now LOL

No science - no data - no factual dietary research - no knowledge of the scope of the areas studied - no willingness to learn about new discoveries. Nada, Nada, Nada

All I can say is

[deepdestroyer]

Originally Posted by SpearMax

Oh Lord, the heavy intellectual rationale is on on full display now LOL

No science - no data - no factual dietary research - no knowledge of the scope of the areas studied - no willingness to learn about new discoveries. Nada, Nada, Nada

All I can say is

Tony, nobody here is going to believe the crap you are trying to spoonfeed us. We have all seen what the "scientists" are here to do. All they want is to shut down fishing to recreational anglers in its entirety. They are not here to "help" the GG populations, and they are not practicing accurate science. If their science was accurate, surely red snapper wouldnt be shut down, and we would all still be harvesting two grouper per person. You can spout out all the scientific garbage you want, but to anyone who actually dives more than a few times a year, it is quite clear how many jewfish there are, and what they eat.

Not to mention you havent really actually proven anything except for the fact that you will belittle anyone who disagrees with you simply because you can.

[SpearMax]

Originally Posted by hammerhead786

There is no possible way Jew fish as a population are sustaining themselves on crabs, period. That is absurd.

Maybe someday Hammerhead you will open your mind and reflect on the wisdom of your statement above. I never said the scientists only found crabs - they are finding fish too, but not large numbers of the ones you think they are finding. They are finding some slow-moving fish like puffers.

I have video footage of old timers like Frank Hammett saying they found all kinds of fish and crustaceans in their stomachs at one time or another. We all know Goliaths are opportunistic feeders and if lobsters walk during their daytime feeding hours or catfish abound in the intracoastal where Goliaths are, these species may end up in the stomaches of Goliaths. That is nature's way.

The issue Hammerhead is what percentage of their diet are the various prey?

The subject of metabolism is also to be considered in the question of how much prey is needed for "sustaining themselves."

Read this report that Spearboard member Dykoke1 posted a while back. He was surprised by the findings of so many crabs too. I had never seen a shame faced crab before this. They live under the sand most of the time.



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