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Old 07-12-2010, 08:17 PM   #1
SpearMax
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Arrow Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

FWC held a final permit/pompano workshop prior to returning to the Commission on July 12th. Several spearos from across the state were in attendance. I went to the one at FWC Southern Region Headquarters with a few local spearos.

This is the last public workshop scheduled for permit, pompano, and African pompano before staff recommends draft rule changes to the Commission in September 2010.

Specifically, this workshop included a discussion of extending several permit and pompano regulations into federal waters, such as the combined recreational bag limit of six fish (including one fish over 20 inches), the slot limit of 11-20 inches fork length, and allowable recreational gears.

There was a discussion of spearfishing for permit in federal waters. Possible commercial regulation changes for permit were also discussed, including establishment of a commercial trip limit of 250 fish per day and allowing Pompano Endorsement holders to use allowable gears for pompano to catch permit inside the Pompano Endorsement Zone.

The potential rule changes being considered for African pompano include extending the size limit, bag limit, and gear rules for state waters into federal waters. There was a discussion of commercial harvest and spearfishing in federal waters for African pompano.

If you are interested in finding out the details of what was discussed look at this prwsentation at this link:

http://www.myfwc.com/docs/RulesRegul...on_Pompano.pdf

The bottom line is that it appears as though we will be allowed to spear one (per day) of these fish greater than 20 inches in length in federal waters only with a boat limit of 2. We argued that they should allow the spearing in state waters as well and give us the same slot limit fish bag limits as hook and line gear.

The new rules would take effect next January 1, 2011.

I wish to thank everyone that participated in these workshops over the past year. We will have to wait and see what they do in the final recommendations.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:21 PM   #2
RichT
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

I managed to catch parts of the meeting being broadcast from a friend and want to thank Dennis O'Hern from the FRA, as well as fellow club members Ed Walker, Bryan Anderson and Chris Grauer for attending personally.
I also want to thank everyone who attended via satellite for fighting for my rights to reasonable fishing regulations based on good science.

I saw that Bonefish and Tarpon Trust (BTT) have not given up their fight to make Permit a catch and release fishery and appear to be pumping money into a last ditch effort to stop the commission from enacting sound scientific rules and regulations.
It appears they hired famed, or is that infamous, scientist Jerry Ault from the University of Miami to try and sway FWC scientists and commissioners that the Permit fishery is much more valuable as a catch and release fishery than a "catch and consume fishery."
Good ole Jerry had plenty to say at the meeting tonight from what I could tell.

For those who do not know who Jerry Ault is, he is the scientist who 7 years ago produced the now infamous report indicating hogfish in the State of Florida were "nearly extinct"!
He has been labeled an anti-fishing scientist by several pro-fishing groups and a hero by environmental extremist groups thanks to several of his studies and reports.
I really wish he would get his butt out of the keys and look around the state and the SE before he puts pen to paper...

Lets hope that the FWC continues down their current path of good science, fair laws and continues to watch this fishery closely for any signs of trouble.

Last edited by RichT; 07-12-2010 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:30 PM   #3
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

The newly proposed rules are blatantly discriminatory against spearfisherman. Hook and line fisherman will be allowed to take 5 Permit within the slot size, while spearfisherman will be allowed to take ZERO of this size (in federal water) See Slide No. 11.

Spearfisherman will be allowed to take only ONE permit and it will have to be over 20 inches.

They have recommended that state waters remain entirely closed to spearing.

They also recommended that all commercial spearfishing for these species (in federal water) be entirely suspended.

I was pretty disappointed that their staff was unable to provide a reasonable, logical or even defensible argument for proposing to promulgate new additional regulations that are discriminatory and will only serve to further complicate enforcement. I asked “how will a law enforcement officer determine if a fish has been speared or gaffed?” Why should he even have to care?

It was surprising to hear that the director of FRA, Mr. O'Hern, say that he entirely approved of the proposed regulations. He failed to even acknowledge that the newly proposed rule (5 versus zero fish in the slot size , for recreational) is discriminatory against our particular gear type.

I know that we don't commonly see many of these small permit to spear, but I would have hoped that there would have been more public comment about the wisdom of making new rules that are designed to specifically discriminate against spearfishing gear. I personally feel that it is another undesirable and ominous precedent, probably I don’t understand all the politics of this issue.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:11 PM   #4
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
The newly proposed rules are blatantly discriminatory against spearfisherman. Hook and line fisherman will be allowed to take 5 Permit within the slot size, while spearfisherman will be allowed to take ZERO of this size (in federal water) See Slide No. 11.

Spearfisherman will be allowed to take only ONE permit and it will have to be over 20 inches.

They have recommended that state waters remain entirely closed to spearing.

They also recommended that all commercial spearfishing for these species (in federal water) be entirely suspended.

I was pretty disappointed that their staff was unable to provide a reasonable, logical or even defensible argument for proposing to promulgate new additional regulations that are discriminatory and will only serve to further complicate enforcement. I asked “how will a law enforcement officer determine if a fish has been speared or gaffed?” Why should he even have to care?

It was surprising to hear that the director of FRA, Mr. O'Hern, say that he entirely approved of the proposed regulations. He failed to even acknowledge that the newly proposed rule (5 versus zero fish in the slot size , for recreational) is discriminatory against our particular gear type.

I know that we don't commonly see many of these small permit to spear, but I would have hoped that there would have been more public comment about the wisdom of making new rules that are designed to specifically discriminate against spearfishing gear. I personally feel that it is another undesirable and ominous precedent, probably I don’t understand all the politics of this issue.
Huh?
Ive read your post 3 times and those 3 beers I drank earlier must be clouding my brain or something but it appears(to me) that we have been given a pot of gold and you are complaining that no one gave us a cart to carry it in.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:37 PM   #5
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Smile Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Originally Posted by RichT View Post
I managed to catch parts of the meeting being broadcast from a friend and want to thank Dennis O'Hern from the FRA, as well as fellow club members Ed Walker, Bryan Anderson and Chris Chris Grauer for attending personally.
Yes, it was good to see them there in St. Pete.

There were other spearos in other locations who also had good things to say.

Thanks to all the participants (even those we disagree with like Ted).
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:35 AM   #6
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

That presentation deck only shows it is a proposal. IF it goes into effect it starts in 2011. I am pretty sure going by that email I copied and pasted that Florida can enforce state laws on fish caught in Fed waters (assuiming it is correct which it looked like) . Pretty sure the guy is screwed in court unless something changed.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:39 AM   #7
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Originally Posted by RichT View Post
Huh?
Ive read your post 3 times and those 3 beers I drank earlier must be clouding my brain or something but it appears(to me) that we have been given a pot of gold and you are complaining that no one gave us a cart to carry it in.
Pot of gold?

How many permit can we spear in federal water now?

How many will we be able to do when the new rules are implemented?

Why do you consider it a pot of gold to be allowed zero slot sized fish while the H&L is allowed 5?
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:20 AM   #8
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
It was surprising to hear that the director of FRA, Mr. O'Hern, say that he entirely approved of the proposed regulations. He failed to even acknowledge that the newly proposed rule (5 versus zero fish in the slot size , for recreational) is discriminatory against our particular gear type.
Entirely? Nope. Please don't misquote me.
Largely approve. Based on all of the public input. Based on the five previous meetings.

You are free to express your opinion. I don't recall you being at any of the previous meetings. Sorry in advance if I am incorrect on this one.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:46 AM   #9
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Entirely? Nope. Please don't misquote me.
Largely approve. Based on all of the public input. Based on the five previous meetings.

You are free to express your opinion. I don't recall you being at any of the previous meetings. Sorry in advance if I am incorrect on this one.
Thanks for responding Denny. I certainly don't want to mis represent what you said at the meeting last night. Did you say ANYTHING about the discriminatory aspects of this rule? Maybe I missed it.

My previous comment about you was: He failed to even acknowledge that the newly proposed rule (5 versus zero fish in the slot size , for recreational) is discriminatory against our particular gear type.

Is this correct or not? Your silence in this regard can be perceived as approval, it seems. I do remember your opening statements where you thanked all their staff for doing a great job and that you approved of ALL the proposed new regulations. Is my recollection correct in this regard?

I know that you and the FRA were dead set against showing any approval for the spearfishing exemption on the East Coast a few months ago. This recent meeting appears to be another opportunity for the FRA to specifically support spearfishing in federal water, yet this was not done. I disagreed with, (but understood the FRA reluctance to support the spearfishing exemption in the Atlantic), however I honestly don't see why there was no push back on the new discriminatory rules against spearfishing in federal water?

It just doesn't seem like a pot of gold? I remember a LONG time ago when I posted some pictures on Spearboard of a Permit I shot while snorkeling that was considerably bigger than the current world record and how this seemed to stir things up a bit. As I recall, I ended up trying to defend my actions by posting the legal opinion (dated July 2005) which I solicited from the FWC that supported my ability to shoot permit in federal water. So I do have a little personal involvement in this issue. (Maybe I should have never posted the picture?)

BTW, I attended only two of the meetings (the ones which are relatively close to my home.)
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:17 AM   #10
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

Nice fish!

Denny did question the state versus federal incongruity as I recall. I did the same in the discussion.

But, jfjf is entitled to his opinion and I guess he feels strongly that we did not get the best deal possible.

Having been there at the meetings from the beginning, I think we did fairly well.

But, hey that is what happens sometimes when politics and science meet.

In an ideal situation, we should be on a par with the hook and liners when all things are equal, but as I pointed out in my comments there is alot of historical bad precedent in rule-making that was biased against spearfishers that needs to be overcome. When it comes to the spearfishing exemption, we should not be on a par with hook and liners because things are not equal in that our gear type's selectivity overcomes the by-catch aspect of the argument for complete closure of many species.

Rich is right in that Jerry Ault appears to be setting up for future protective measures.

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"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996

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Old 07-13-2010, 09:45 AM   #11
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

In my opinion one permit over 20 inches is plenty with a two boat max. I understand the argument that H/L and spearing regs are not equal but thats life.

We are NOT going to get the same regs as H/L guys because those regs are primarily meant for inshore fishing in state waters. Typically the fish we see are far larger than 20 inches and there's no way in hell we are going to get more than two over 20" in fed waters.

I hope the mentality that we deserve equal rights to H/L guys doesn't bite us in the ass and we end up with ZERO.

BTW, STUD Permit!!
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:13 AM   #12
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Question Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
In an ideal situation, we should be on a par with the hook and liners when all things are equal, but as I pointed out in my comments there is alot of historical bad precedent in rule-making that was biased against spearfishers that needs to be overcome. When it comes to the spearfishing exemption, we should not be on a par with hook and liners because things are not equal in that our gear type's selectivity overcomes the by-catch aspect of the argument for complete closure of many species.
Gamble, do you agree with this approach I describe above? Tony
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"Spearing is the path to enlightenment." --- Lao Tzu

“Live this day as if it will be your last. Remember that you will only find 'tomorrow' on the calendars of fools.”

---- Success Unlimited Author Og Mandino b.1923 - d.1996
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #13
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

In a perfect world where decisions are made based on black and white I could understand your position. Unfortunatly 99.9% of fisheries decisions are based on grey data, lobbyists and who can line whose pockets. If it was about the fish, these issues would have never come up. The issues and ideas your describing are far to complicated to simply take the stance that spearfishing has zero bycatch and should be allowed regardless if it's true.

IMHO being allowed to take two Permit over 20 inches per boat per day is far better than Permit being a catch and release species. I think asking for the same regs as H/L is simply poking a hornets nest.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:03 PM   #14
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Smile Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

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In a perfect world where decisions are made based on black and white I could understand your position. Unfortunatly 99.9% of fisheries decisions are based on grey data, lobbyists and who can line whose pockets. If it was about the fish, these issues would have never come up. The issues and ideas your describing are far to complicated to simply take the stance that spearfishing has zero bycatch and should be allowed regardless if it's true.

IMHO being allowed to take two Permit over 20 inches per boat per day is far better than Permit being a catch and release species. I think asking for the same regs as H/L is simply poking a hornets nest.
Your point is well-taken by me. Thanks!
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:50 PM   #15
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Re: Report on the Permit and Pompano State-wide Video Workshop July 12, 2010

Tony & Rich,

I don't get it. We currently have no limit and are about to go to a 1 fish limit and you guys make the following comments? Someone please explain.

Quote:
Having been there at the meetings from the beginning, I think we did fairly well.
Quote:
...it appears (to me) that we have been given a pot of gold and you are complaining that no one gave us a cart to carry it in.
Scott
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