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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 07-29-2018, 11:35 PM   #46
spearq8
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Makely View Post
Obviously you only handled it in the pool but any thoughts about how the shape would help or hinder tracking fish in a real world situation with current, swell, etc?
Oh ... I have used the Urukay 120 for spearfishing many times. In its modified setup that I have, it performs very close to my older Albacore 120 with 3 x 14.7mm bands and an 8.5m shaft. This would be a perfect gun for shooting large pelagics at distance. I haven't used it for a long while as I have an Albacore 130 (modified) that I now use anytime I hunt large pelagics. This is an Albacore 130 that has about 10cm more band stretch on 3 bands and has an Ermessub double roller trigger. This is a gun that can shoot flat and accurate all the way to 8 meters while pulling cable and can still easily pass the Tuna Penetration Test at that distance. I can aim at the top edge of an orange sized target at 0 meters and hit it and use the same aim point and still end up hitting the same target at 8 meters (bottom of it) without any compensation for shaft drop. Nothing comes close to that type of performance and this is only with 3 quick loading thin bands. You can see test of this modified Albacore 130 here


As for the Dark ... I only used it in the pool and it seemed to handle well. The belly seems ridiculously large and I think in high current it might be a PIA. In its default setup it is not a gun I would recommend ... but as things are with many guns you should not be stuck with the default setup and you need to change a few things. My friend who uses it is a spearfishing safari guide and hunts pelagics all over the world. He really likes, so that should say something. I will say that in the pool though, the setup he used was similar in power to my customized Pathos 90 with 2 x 14mm bands. I think with his spearfishing ability any gun would work for him, and he just loved that the gun shot so accurate and was willing to sacrifice power. Personally I think it is possible to get power and accuracy in one package ... you just have to mod the handle and adjust the muzzle.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:03 PM   #47
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Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
. I can aim at the top edge of an orange sized target at 0 meters and hit it and use the same aim point and still end up hitting the same target at 8 meters (bottom of it) without any compensation for shaft drop.


How large is the target a size of an orange? So letís say the orange is about 10cm. If I understand correctly you have a shaft drop of 100mm @ 8meters distance?

It is good to put some numbers to it so I know what to aim for once I get in the pool.

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Old 07-30-2018, 03:33 PM   #48
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

Are we still talking about Classic Band Guns even in this thread?

Where's the Roller Tests? Carbonia, Alemanni, Roisub, Mr Joints, etc.. if you're listening, could we please see some of the newest tests at ranges 8mtrs and +?
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Old 07-30-2018, 04:07 PM   #49
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Are we still talking about Classic Band Guns even in this thread?

Where's the Roller Tests? Carbonia, Alemanni, Roisub, Mr Joints, etc.. if you're listening, could we please see some of the newest tests at ranges 8mtrs and +?
It would be really interesting if a comparison could be done somehow across a few of these good one. Maybe add Gladiator add Petar Pan. It's surprising that the inverted rollers are not more utilized. The physics definitely makes more sense than the standard rollers.
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Old 07-30-2018, 07:23 PM   #50
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

Are there any real life videos of that Albacore in action? I mean, with swimming fish.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:37 AM   #51
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

would LOVE to see any of the rollers Jon mentions in the pool. But especially the big Vela!

Satdiver - youíve teased us numerous times re pool footage

Kon? 2fishin2? Címon Vela owners, someone take the big girl for a spin in the pool, fire off a dozen rounds at any old 8 metre target with the goPro rolling
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:52 AM   #52
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

Seriously.. Yes. Peter Pan. Yes Nevin. Give us something to talk about.
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:20 AM   #53
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Are there any real life videos of that Albacore in action? I mean, with swimming fish.

With that albacore I have caught several Dogtooth Tuna, Yellow Fin Tuna, Giant Trevale, Spotted Trevale on one single trip in about a 4 hour period. We eventually stopped spearfishing because there we ran of place to put fish in the boat. I think if I would post about that trip it would have more to do about the amazing location rather how well the gun performed.

Look ... I understand that for some people shooting targets in a pool using static metrics has no value. But I would say that by far the biggest jump in speargun performance has come from these tests. The metrics test accuracy, shaft drop and shaft penetration on target. The distances are exact and the penetration testing media is repeatable. If you would use shooting fish as a metric it would be difficult to be sure what the distance was, also penetration would be hard to judge as if you hit bone it would be different than if you hit soft belly ... also different fish have different flesh hardness. The angle you shoot a fish also has an affect on impact point. While a video of shooting fish might have much higher entertainment value, it does not provide much useful information with speargun performance.

As for rollers ... I think we need to separate rollers into two categories. Simple rollers and Invert rollers. Many consider them the same but they are completely different categories. Lately it seems that invert rollers are taking over the simple rollers, and that probably is because they perform better. It would be great if more static testing could be done to actually gauge performance and what advantages a certain system has over the other. I am thinking of setting up a pipe gun barrel at about 110 (widely seen as the optimum length of a roller) and have it set as a classic setup then a roller setup and then an inverse roller setup. All these setups would be tuned to the maximum possible setting using the best materials available today. While it would not test all possible scenarios and all possible roller setups, it should give some good data. The idea would be to test 3 different shaft diameters 7mm, 7.5mm and 8mm. It would be a long project but I think it would provide useful data.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:31 AM   #54
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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With that albacore I have caught several Dogtooth Tuna, Yellow Fin Tuna, Giant Trevale, Spotted Trevale on one single trip in about a 4 hour period. We eventually stopped spearfishing because there we ran of place to put fish in the boat. I think if I would post about that trip it would have more to do about the amazing location rather how well the gun performed.

Look ... I understand that for some people shooting targets in a pool using static metrics has no value. But I would say that by far the biggest jump in speargun performance has come from these tests. The metrics test accuracy, shaft drop and shaft penetration on target. The distances are exact and the penetration testing media is repeatable. If you would use shooting fish as a metric it would be difficult to be sure what the distance was, also penetration would be hard to judge as if you hit bone it would be different than if you hit soft belly ... also different fish have different flesh hardness. The angle you shoot a fish also has an affect on impact point. While a video of shooting fish might have much higher entertainment value, it does not provide much useful information with speargun performance.

As for rollers ... I think we need to separate rollers into two categories. Simple rollers and Invert rollers. Many consider them the same but they are completely different categories. Lately it seems that invert rollers are taking over the simple rollers, and that probably is because they perform better. It would be great if more static testing could be done to actually gauge performance and what advantages a certain system has over the other. I am thinking of setting up a pipe gun barrel at about 110 (widely seen as the optimum length of a roller) and have it set as a classic setup then a roller setup and then an inverse roller setup. All these setups would be tuned to the maximum possible setting using the best materials available today. While it would not test all possible scenarios and all possible roller setups, it should give some good data. The idea would be to test 3 different shaft diameters 7mm, 7.5mm and 8mm. It would be a long project but I think it would provide useful data.
I would definitely look forward to the test. It would be great if a test could be done of inverted rollers with an without booster bands. I'd guess the booster bands definitely help when the shaft diameter goes up but we need the testing
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:30 AM   #55
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post

I am thinking of setting up a pipe gun barrel at about 110 (widely seen as the optimum length of a roller) and have it set as a classic setup then a roller setup and then an inverse roller setup. All these setups would be tuned to the maximum possible setting using the best materials available today. While it would not test all possible scenarios and all possible roller setups, it should give some good data. The idea would be to test 3 different shaft diameters 7mm, 7.5mm and 8mm. It would be a long project but I think it would provide useful data.

I'd love to see this test as well.
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:49 PM   #56
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

Any chance anyone has done any testing on rollers? Any up to date videos or stats out there?
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:30 PM   #57
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

I would definitely love to see a test and comparison of the different style guns. I'm definitely a believer in inverts for pipe guns.

I wasn't able to get the accuracy I wanted out of a classic setup I used to run on my pipe gun.

The test shooting with my invert roller (110 cm, 6x14 mm bands at 310% stretch, 7.5 mm shaft) shot dead center at about 13 ft from the end of my gun.

I'll be test shooting a friend's 110 single roller this weekend. I'll see how that goes, but it's not apples to apples since the guns are just setup differently. Plus I know my friend isn't as particular about shaft straightness as I am. I don't own a single roller gun, but my friends have told me they tend to shoot low. I'm thinking that has something to do with the muzzle end flinging the shaft rear up.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:20 PM   #58
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

Shooting in pools here is forbidden, unless it is a private pool and not many will countenance a shaft punching into a tiled pool wall. Unstable guns can fling a shaft through the water surface after which it can fly a considerable distance.
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Old 10-01-2019, 06:34 AM   #59
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
As for rollers ... I think we need to separate rollers into two categories. Simple rollers and Invert rollers. Many consider them the same but they are completely different categories. Lately it seems that invert rollers are taking over the simple rollers, and that probably is because they perform better. It would be great if more static testing could be done to actually gauge performance and what advantages a certain system has over the other. I am thinking of setting up a pipe gun barrel at about 110 (widely seen as the optimum length of a roller) and have it set as a classic setup then a roller setup and then an inverse roller setup. All these setups would be tuned to the maximum possible setting using the best materials available today. While it would not test all possible scenarios and all possible roller setups, it should give some good data. The idea would be to test 3 different shaft diameters 7mm, 7.5mm and 8mm. It would be a long project but I think it would provide useful data.
I would be VERY interesting to see if the claimed speed advantage for invert rollers is there or not.
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Old 10-13-2019, 02:21 PM   #60
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Re: Roller Spearguns - whats the fuss about?

I recently purchased an Alemanni, 120 hybrid which is a new model of his. The gun comes double roller but with an additional inner battery which switches to an invert set-up. So the gun can be a traditional double roller or have one traditional roller and one 4 band invert (string only). Alemanni told me with this inner set switched to invert the power increase is 30%.

I don't know what he means by that and honestly I didn't ask.

As most of you know, the gun is beautifully made. Mine is the only one (thats what I was told) with a reverse mech. If I remember correctly Itio made it himself. So my 120 has exactly 130 cm of stretch.

I went to the pool with it as soon as I got it. I had major trouble with it at first. The hybrid set up seemed to dive badly and the shaft was uncontrollable. Shooting at a vertical 6" foam cylinder I could not barely hit it horizontally in 5 shots and that was about 18" low at 16'. With the standard double roller it was more controllable but still all over. I didn't and still don't know what was going on. That was over 2 days.

I put a foam target in my canal behind my house. The water is not pool clear but I have been able to test a little. First with the double roller I test at 2 meters then at 5 meters for 2 more shots. All 3 shafts went through the same hole. That was impressive. I still need more range out of this much gun but didn't have the visibility.

I then tested the hybrid set up in the canal and again hit 2 shots through the same hole at about 4.5 meters.

Maybe I was wrapping the gun wrong in the pool? I don't know.

Since then I have taken it diving and have taken 2 shots to take 2 wahoo.

The gun is very easy to aim and has been pin point accurate. It shoots a 9mm shaft and has the line length to shoot right around 22' or 6.7m. I haven't seen it shoot that range yet but I was told it was tested accurately to 6 and 7 meters. I don't believe you can count on a gun shooting so far it pulls the floatline so as long as I get 6 meters accurate I'll be happy.

I will try and get some pool video in the coming weeks. Attached are photos of the Alemanni 120 preloaded.

Below are 2 videos shooting the Albacore at actual fish. Nothing special size wise but since you asked...

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