Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > Spearfishing Gear > All About Guns

All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-28-2016, 07:38 PM   #91
phil herranen
Registered User
 
phil herranen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: santa cruz
Age: 48
Posts: 5,473
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
plastic sears cannot hold high band loads- and they have the same problem as the metal sears- although - instead of galling or pitting - it just gets scraped away. - right? - idk for sure - but I think this is the case.
and the problem of not being strong enough to handle more than 2 bands.

The best of both worlds- is a metal sear with a plastic roller on it.
right SQ8? behslayahhhhh ? am i wrong?
Plastic trigger ,not sear ,is fine if it's made of the right plastic , the problem with plastic is its soft and has a much larger potential for cracking , and posible miss fire . I wouldn't risk my house on a plastic trigger

If the correct plastic is used there will never be any wear in the useable life of a speargun ,as long as the gun is not fired out of the water
__________________





frv owners discount http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=134606
phil herranen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2016, 07:42 PM   #92
manoa matt
Registered User
 
manoa matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Honolulu Hawaii
Posts: 345
Re: another wedge hybrid

Likely due to the type of polymer, plastic triggers seam to work on the AD mechanisms with (2) hot 5/8" bands. It's density and composition reminds me of Corian/solid surface. However the glass reinforced nylon trigger as pictured does not hold up well to (2) 9/16" bands. As Phil previously mentioned, a very short sear lever increases the load on the trigger surface. (of the reverse mechanisms I have experience with, this uses the shortest sear lever) If the sear was longer the load would be less and the nylon possibly strong enough for the task.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	trigger.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	112.1 KB
ID:	229675  
manoa matt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2016, 08:39 PM   #93
greekdiver
Registered User
 
greekdiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl
Age: 46
Posts: 2,643
Send a message via MSN to greekdiver
Re: another wedge hybrid

Good thing the "plastic" trigger on the Abellan is magic
__________________
Spearfishing Videos!!
greekdiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2016, 08:57 PM   #94
frankt
apneist
 
frankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 350
Thumbs up Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by greekdiver View Post
Good thing the "plastic" trigger on the Abellan is magic
i second what greek diver said
frankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2016, 11:45 PM   #95
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,292
Re: another wedge hybrid

I never said I was heat treating the SS sears, 304 and 316 SS cannot be heat treated. It is a different process called Kolsterising or Bodycote S3P ... which is completely different to heat treating.

There are 2 main points of stress in a trigger ... one is the area where the shaft sear interacts with the shaft hook and the other is the area where the trigger sear interacts with the shaft sear. Dealing with the shaft sear + shaft hook interaction seems like it is not so problematic short term, although I have seen some serious gouging or "digs" into the shaft sears on many triggers that could end up being a problem. This is especially true when using High Carbon shafts that are much harder than 304 or 316 SS on thin sears. The more well known problem is the interaction of the trigger sear with the shaft sear ... and here is where galling seems to be a problem. The Abellan sear trigger is one of the thickest I have seen ... if I remember correctly it is 8mm ... I think most other trigger sears are 5mm to 6mm. This sounds like not a big deal but it costs a lot more to cut an 8mm sear than a 6mm sear as the limit of cheaper laser cutting for sears is around 6mm ... so it has to be cut by wire ... which is much more expensive. A larger shaft sear does have more surface area so less chance of a problem with a shaft hook. As for the trigger sear interaction ... the trigger is made of some type of plastic that slides over the SS shaft sear. If I look at my Abellan triggers they are polished smooth where there is interaction. This almost seems like a ridiculously simple solution to the galling problems ... and it might be. I really don't know what the maximum load possible on that trigger is, but I really have tried many powerful loads with no problems. I still would prefer a SS trigger with the correct hardness for the trigger sear, but I am not sure that would be superior. One thing I don't like about the plastic trigger is that it has slightly longer trigger travel. This is most likely due to the fact that the sears slide off each other rather than a typical sudden "break" of a SS sear. But I would be lying if I said that affects accuracy as I can shoot that gun very accurately.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2016, 11:57 PM   #96
phil herranen
Registered User
 
phil herranen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: santa cruz
Age: 48
Posts: 5,473
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
I never said I was heat treating the SS sears, 304 and 316 SS cannot be heat treated. It is a different process called Kolsterising or Bodycote S3P ... which is completely different to heat treating.

There are 2 main points of stress in a trigger ... one is the area where the shaft sear interacts with the shaft hook and the other is the area where the trigger sear interacts with the shaft sear. Dealing with the shaft sear + shaft hook interaction seems like it is not so problematic short term, although I have seen some serious gouging or "digs" into the shaft sears on many triggers that could end up being a problem. This is especially true when using High Carbon shafts that are much harder than 304 or 316 SS on thin sears. The more well known problem is the interaction of the trigger sear with the shaft sear ... and here is where galling seems to be a problem. The Abellan sear trigger is one of the thickest I have seen ... if I remember correctly it is 8mm ... I think most other trigger sears are 5mm to 6mm. This sounds like not a big deal but it costs a lot more to cut an 8mm sear than a 6mm sear as the limit of cheaper laser cutting for sears is around 6mm ... so it has to be cut by wire ... which is much more expensive. A larger shaft sear does have more surface area so less chance of a problem with a shaft hook. As for the trigger sear interaction ... the trigger is made of some type of plastic that slides over the SS shaft sear. If I look at my Abellan triggers they are polished smooth where there is interaction. This almost seems like a ridiculously simple solution to the galling problems ... and it might be. I really don't know what the maximum load possible on that trigger is, but I really have tried many powerful loads with no problems. I still would prefer a SS trigger with the correct hardness for the trigger sear, but I am not sure that would be superior. One thing I don't like about the plastic trigger is that it has slightly longer trigger travel. This is most likely due to the fact that the sears slide off each other rather than a typical sudden "break" of a SS sear. But I would be lying if I said that affects accuracy as I can shoot that gun very accurately.
There is a third point of friction, the pin the shaft and sear rotates on , there is allways rust present and galling
__________________





frv owners discount http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=134606
phil herranen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 10:30 AM   #97
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,292
Re: another wedge hybrid

Not sure about the pin suffering galling, at least I haven't noticed it. It could be that with rotation there is a lot less stress on the surfaces. But that could be something to also look into.

I decided to take apart one of the Abellan triggers and made a close up of the trigger sear. This trigger has been through about 4 or 5 years of heavy shooting. There does seem some discoloration where the metal shaft sear interacted, but there is zero gouging and plastic is super smooth. Whatever this plastic is made of, must be good stuff as it seems to slide really nicely with the metal shaft sear. I will take back the part about the shaft sear being cut by wire ... it looks like a laser cut. So I am guessing this sear had some work done after laser cutting to put the pin holes. Laser cannot cut precise holes @ 8mm thickness plate.

spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 01:01 PM   #98
Behslayer
Registered User
 
Behslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Big Island
Posts: 5,098
Re: another wedge hybrid

can't shake a stick at that
Behslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 03:44 PM   #99
Castronova
The Conch Republic
 
Castronova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Key West, FL
Age: 42
Posts: 1,492
Re: another wedge hybrid

Abellan mech is the same on all guns, euro sear, so yes the same mech on the 3 band models.

The mech calipers at .6 inches or 15.6mm wide.
Castronova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 04:59 PM   #100
Penguin
Registered User
 
Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 27
Re: another wedge hybrid

Ah sorry I got a bit mixed up. Kolsterising or Bodycote S3P sounds good if it can eliminate galling, do you think the cost for this process will become cheaper in the future.
As gun builders, what do you think is the best trigger on the market?
Do Bleutec guns have a thicker trigger sear, does it suffer from galling too?
Penguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 05:33 PM   #101
Impaler Spearguns
Sponsor
 
Impaler Spearguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: key west
Posts: 813
Re: another wedge hybrid

I am going to make some mechs- as an experiment -
So SQ8 - would it be worthwhile to have the sears made from (which one?) 304 0r 305 (or which one will take a heat treatment?) AND the triggers?
or just the sears? couldn't it just be done with a small kiln and using a color chart and oil or water to quench it? just do it homemade style?
I watch a show on discovery called Forge of steel or something like that - but they make swords and knives and do the tempering themselves on camera with rudimentary stuff .
Since ANY improvement is better than what anyone is doing now- maybe it's just worth it to do a tempering ourselves - on the cheap?
The advantage is- the parts are tiny - so quite manageable - so it should be pretty simple.
I took welding class for 2 years - and i seem to remember that you just heat until it reaches a certain color and just quench in oil. Pretty simple really.

I am going to be having a bunch of sears and triggers cut out - and i think I can choose which metal I want- so which SS is best?
__________________
Impaler Spearguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 06:23 PM   #102
Penguin
Registered User
 
Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 27
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
I am going to make some mechs- as an experiment -
So SQ8 - would it be worthwhile to have the sears made from (which one?) 304 0r 305 (or which one will take a heat treatment?) AND the triggers?
or just the sears? couldn't it just be done with a small kiln and using a color chart and oil or water to quench it? just do it homemade style?
I watch a show on discovery called Forge of steel or something like that - but they make swords and knives and do the tempering themselves on camera with rudimentary stuff .
Since ANY improvement is better than what anyone is doing now- maybe it's just worth it to do a tempering ourselves - on the cheap?
The advantage is- the parts are tiny - so quite manageable - so it should be pretty simple.
I took welding class for 2 years - and i seem to remember that you just heat until it reaches a certain color and just quench in oil. Pretty simple really.

I am going to be having a bunch of sears and triggers cut out - and i think I can choose which metal I want- so which SS is best?

Hi Jason, I was totally wrong when I said "heat treating". I did a quick google and what Maj was describing, Kolsterising, is a process of introducing carbon into the structure of steel. I'm not going to try and explain it any more as I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it advertises 4-5 times the original hardness, and resistance to galling.
Penguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 06:42 PM   #103
phil herranen
Registered User
 
phil herranen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: santa cruz
Age: 48
Posts: 5,473
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
I am going to make some mechs- as an experiment -
So SQ8 - would it be worthwhile to have the sears made from (which one?) 304 0r 305 (or which one will take a heat treatment?) AND the triggers?
or just the sears? couldn't it just be done with a small kiln and using a color chart and oil or water to quench it? just do it homemade style?
I watch a show on discovery called Forge of steel or something like that - but they make swords and knives and do the tempering themselves on camera with rudimentary stuff .
Since ANY improvement is better than what anyone is doing now- maybe it's just worth it to do a tempering ourselves - on the cheap?
The advantage is- the parts are tiny - so quite manageable - so it should be pretty simple.
I took welding class for 2 years - and i seem to remember that you just heat until it reaches a certain color and just quench in oil. Pretty simple really.

I am going to be having a bunch of sears and triggers cut out - and i think I can choose which metal I want- so which SS is best?
17-4 stainless is heat treatable stainless , but no you can't harden it with a quinch like mild steel . Also hardening and heat treat are two differant things ,hardening simply hardens the metal ,heat treat changes and aligns the crystal structure of the metal

You have to heat to a certan temp and hold it there for a set time period, then let it cool. I have been told that you can get close to full hardness by runing the parts threw the self cleaning cycle in a home oven
__________________





frv owners discount http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=134606
phil herranen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 09:42 PM   #104
Impaler Spearguns
Sponsor
 
Impaler Spearguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: key west
Posts: 813
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil herranen View Post
17-4 stainless is heat treatable stainless , but no you can't harden it with a quinch like mild steel . Also hardening and heat treat are two differant things ,hardening simply hardens the metal ,heat treat changes and aligns the crystal structure of the metal

You have to heat to a certan temp and hold it there for a set time period, then let it cool. I have been told that you can get close to full hardness by runing the parts threw the self cleaning cycle in a home oven
self cleaning cycle? wow!
I was thinking an electric kiln for pottery and just heat and quench.
Is that going to improve hardness enough to be worth while?
introducing carbon etc- is a bit too complicated for me- but a heat and quench - I can handle

what do you think about euro mechs for 3 band guns ? what about for more bands? like 4 or 5?
__________________
Impaler Spearguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 10:13 PM   #105
phil herranen
Registered User
 
phil herranen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: santa cruz
Age: 48
Posts: 5,473
Re: another wedge hybrid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
self cleaning cycle? wow!
I was thinking an electric kiln for pottery and just heat and quench.
Is that going to improve hardness enough to be worth while?
introducing carbon etc- is a bit too complicated for me- but a heat and quench - I can handle

what do you think about euro mechs for 3 band guns ? what about for more bands? like 4 or 5?
Speaking mostly twards the neptonics reverse ,don't trust them past 3 and i wont use them with more than two. there is just too small of a contact surface between the trigger and sear and with the poor geometry of parts inherent to shallow reverse mechs galling will be more and more of a issue .

Heat and quinch will not work on 17-4 , only a heat treat cycle will do it

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...inless-249826/
__________________





frv owners discount http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=134606

Last edited by phil herranen; 10-29-2016 at 10:22 PM.
phil herranen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:36 PM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com