Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > Spearfishing Gear > All About Guns

All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-02-2019, 02:54 PM   #1
makoa352
HUI KOA KAI O HAMAKUA
 
makoa352's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: HAMAKUA-SOUTHPAC
Posts: 191
Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Aloha!

The latest batch of Pathos D2 handle and trigger mechs (w/ side line release) I received for some gun builds are not smooth on the release like the others I have. When the shaft is loaded into the sear the trigger does not smoothly travel aft to the release point. It is way worse when the bands are loaded and the shaft is under pressure...the trigger does not begin to travel aft unless I pull really hard and deliberately with a strong “jerk” at the end to actually release the shaft. Theses handles came with trigger mechs and side line releases already installed. This is the first time I’ve ever had this issue with the D2 handles/trigger mechs. I’ve installed trigger mechs with side line releases and also trigger mechs where I’ve had to convert from the pin to the side line release and still have never had this “binding” issue. Usually these triggers are super smooth on the release.

If anyone else has had this issue and was able to fix it please post your solution. I’m going to try and polish the sear, and grind whatever I need to and see if that fixes it. I’m also going to swap out the trigger mechs with the ones I know that work and see what the differences are in fit and machining of the stainless parts.
__________________
HUI KOA KAI O HAMAKUA

E MALAMA I KE KAI
makoa352 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2019, 03:13 PM   #2
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,262
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by makoa352 View Post
Aloha!

The latest batch of Pathos D2 handle and trigger mechs (w/ side line release) I received for some gun builds are not smooth on the release like the others I have. When the shaft is loaded into the sear the trigger does not smoothly travel aft to the release point. It is way worse when the bands are loaded and the shaft is under pressure...the trigger does not begin to travel aft unless I pull really hard and deliberately with a strong “jerk” at the end to actually release the shaft. Theses handles came with trigger mechs and side line releases already installed. This is the first time I’ve ever had this issue with the D2 handles/trigger mechs. I’ve installed trigger mechs with side line releases and also trigger mechs where I’ve had to convert from the pin to the side line release and still have never had this “binding” issue. Usually these triggers are super smooth on the release.

If anyone else has had this issue and was able to fix it please post your solution. I’m going to try and polish the sear, and grind whatever I need to and see if that fixes it. I’m also going to swap out the trigger mechs with the ones I know that work and see what the differences are in fit and machining of the stainless parts.
Mark the moving parts with engineer's blue and dry fire the mech while applying load on the shaft and check to see what rubs and how. One way to load a shaft without bands is to put a weight (e.g. a gym weight) on it at the tip and let gravity pull the shaft out. Hold the gun vertically pointed downwards, stand on a chair, etc. Better to do that before grinding anything off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_blue
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2019, 01:42 AM   #3
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,106
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Can you post pictures? Pix from side and from top view. Also if you remove the trigger can you check the width of the mech box in several different locations, to get an idea of trigger box tolerance.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 05:29 PM   #4
Marco
Registered User
 
Marco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North Miami, Florida
Age: 54
Posts: 2,603
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Pathos reloaded...
__________________
Marco

A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work
Marco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 10:37 AM   #5
Diving Gecko
Shooter & Shooter
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 833
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco View Post
Pathos reloaded...
I know you have zero love in your heart for them, haha.
I tend to think at least half the heat they get is because there's much more spotlight on them. Majd could have picked other guns as a platform and with scrutiny found similar issues over time, I am sure.
E.g. I have seen brand new guns from another Euro brand where we couldn't pull the trigger on some of them when loaded with two medium bands. The trigger was so raggedly cut, the friction was unbelievable. Brand new, straight from the factory, full SS trigger. Just bling with, likely, zero QC nor testing...
Diving Gecko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:41 PM   #6
Marco
Registered User
 
Marco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North Miami, Florida
Age: 54
Posts: 2,603
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Well, I've never had one. And don't plan to do it...
__________________
Marco

A bad day fishing is ALWAYS better than a good day at work
Marco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:55 PM   #7
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,262
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diving Gecko View Post
I know you have zero love in your heart for them, haha.
I tend to think at least half the heat they get is because there's much more spotlight on them. Majd could have picked other guns as a platform and with scrutiny found similar issues over time, I am sure.
E.g. I have seen brand new guns from another Euro brand where we couldn't pull the trigger on some of them when loaded with two medium bands. The trigger was so raggedly cut, the friction was unbelievable. Brand new, straight from the factory, full SS trigger. Just bling with, likely, zero QC nor testing...
Any guns with poor finish should be sent straight back for rectification as you pay for a gun that works properly, not a home workshop project. If there is a reluctance to take the gun back indicate that photos will be posted on the Web showing all and sundry the “quality” of their work.
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 05:04 PM   #8
makoa352
HUI KOA KAI O HAMAKUA
 
makoa352's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: HAMAKUA-SOUTHPAC
Posts: 191
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

So after speaking with my distributor and a few other Pathos “experts” it turns out that the Pathos D2 handles I’ve been using on all of my guns in the past do not have a safety that engages and disengages. But these new Pathos D2 handles look identical but the “button” on these new handles actually pushes in and out, engaging and disengaging a safety. So if the button gets pushed in a little then the trigger acts like a very tight and stuck trigger during the pull. All these years of using this handle I never had a handle that had a movable button. I’m fact, the “buttons” on my old handles do not move at all no matter how hard I try to engage them. The buttons on the new handles are very easy to push in and out, engaging and disengaging the safety.

IMHO a safety is the reason a prized fish gets away. I do not like safeties on my spearguns. The only sure “safety” is deliberate and good muzzle discipline. Don’t point your speargun at anything you don’t intend to shoot. That’s why I wear my GoPro and I don’t mount it on my gun. I cringe when I see guys filming their dive buddies with a loaded speargun because their GoPro is mounted on the gun. As a LEO this is drilled into us at every training with live fire exercise we do...tactical and CQB.

Anyway, I found the cause of the binding and hard trigger pull.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	7FBD1CE2-5A5F-4D84-95FD-AC82BBE43C72.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	130.6 KB
ID:	244387  
__________________
HUI KOA KAI O HAMAKUA

E MALAMA I KE KAI
makoa352 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 06:20 PM   #9
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,262
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

The Aquacraft Bandito had a safety in that position, but was slightly rearward, and I never had a problem with it. Maybe that button is too close to where the fingers wrap.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	bandito grip - Copy.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	88.1 KB
ID:	244388   Click image for larger version

Name:	Bandito.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	100.6 KB
ID:	244389  
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 10:04 PM   #10
spearq8
Registered User
 
spearq8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,106
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

Reverse triggers in general have a tremendous amount of pressure on the sears. There is no lever divider to reduce the stresses on the sears. Add to that the fact that on most pipe guns the emphasis is on building the gun as "cheaply" as possible … you end up with a problem. The Pathos D2 handle main problem is that the mech box is only 7mm internally, 5mm sears were initially used to allow for enough tolerance to get things moving well. But 5mm of 316 SS is just too little metal to survive the high pressures of a reverse trigger. Recently they moved to a 6mm sears and have cut out a moon shape on the trigger sear so that a minimal amount of surface area is scratching over the shaft sear … it helps, but it is not a good fix as the scratching is actually worse on the shaft sear, but since the contact surface area is less it feels like it works better.

This is not a problem only with Pathos, but basically every friction reverse trigger that uses metal on both the trigger sear and the shaft sear will have a problem. Ironically the much older and cheaper Pathos 1 handle has no problems as it uses a plastic trigger sear. Of course it also uses a plastic mech box which has its own problems … but if I had to choose either the D1 or D2 on a fishing trip I would go for the D1 in a second.
spearq8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 01:32 PM   #11
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,262
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

In the speargun trigger mechanism design rules thread I looked at the trigger as a torque reducer where the sear lever and trigger geometry use the lever arm lengths to reduce the force needed at the trigger to fire the gun. In many trigger mechanisms the design aim is to direct the force from the sear lever directly at the trigger’s pivot pin to make the torque on the trigger close to zero.

However on many reverse trigger mechanisms they cannot do that as the sear lever will sweep through the trigger pivot pin position, hence they are geared to make the incoming torque small. One aspect that intrudes on this arrangement is the angled sear tooth as unlike a square cut tooth there are force components not parallel to the spear pull direction. On the second diagram shown below the components of spear pull force are shown in orange, the normal to the tooth contact and the parallel to the tooth surface where they touch. The latter force component tried to push the sear box roof off, but the former pushes down on the trigger. If you calculate the torques as the sear lever moves then they are the same as before, but the angled sear tooth puts a static load on the trigger retention step as the sear lever arm cannot bend. These reverse trigger mechanisms would work better with a square cut tooth, but then they would not be able to use a wide rectangular mouth sear box. The reason that they do dates back to the shooting line running back into the sear box and attaching at the extreme rear of the spear tail because the tooth angle causes the spear tail to clamp firmly up against the sear box roof. In square cut tail sear boxes the shaft is surrounded by a tunnel and is usually round, not flat except for a dent in the roof or flats on the sides to stop the shaft rotating or rolling in the sear box.

Eurogun shafts cannot roll as their flat tails are always pushing upwards on the sear box roof and thus they cannot wobble side to side especially when the band load is on, even when the sear box has no floor and no sides touching the spear.

popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2019, 01:46 PM   #12
popgun pete
Registered User
 
popgun pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,262
Re: Pathos D’Angelo 2 issues

An example of a square cut tail and reverse trigger mechanism is the Sea Hornet and its Biller clone. There the sear lever cannot sweep through the trigger pivot pin because the sear lever and its pivot pin sits high above the trigger pivot pin and never has to swing down that far at its tip to release the spear tail. The result is a tall mechanism that still works OK in the thicker handles used on cocking stock guns, not surprisingly as that is exactly what it was designed for.

The angled eurogun tooth stems from the desire to have universal spear tails that descend from the flat trigger mechanism used in the Champion Arbalete. As the sear lever used in it was a pawl it needed an angled tooth so as not to push the spear slightly rearwards when you pulled the trigger. When cam lock trigger mechanisms replaced the pull down sear used in the first guns they stayed with that angled tooth.


This gun and its many copies by Voit and US Divers formed the core on which world spearfishing was built until the cocking stock guns appeared that began to use ever greater band loads and enormous barrels and spears.

Last edited by popgun pete; 11-06-2019 at 03:29 PM.
popgun pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:38 AM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com