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Old 01-04-2014, 04:54 PM   #46
Summerland Key
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

skinneej:

jfjf just likes to be argumentative. If we followed his logic we would be killing manatees because they have a lot of meat on them and shooting 5 inch hogfish because he found one with roe.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:18 PM   #47
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

skinneej,I see them so small there they look like ornamentals.Has a lot to do with what type bottom you dive and where.Ledge hogs average bigger but fewer are real big or real small.

Interesting that Mike,Don and I agree on most points.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:23 PM   #48
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

100 days

Up until a week or so ago I would have thought the really small hogs you are seeing off Jax. were probably spawned somewhere to the south, like the Keys, since they probably drift for weeks before settling out. But, if they are genetically different from ours in the Keys, that is probably not the case.
Some of these populations may be more self recruiting, with the currents/eddies, etc., than we originally thought.
One of these days I would like to get back up your way and spear a bigger hog. I have one on my wall in the Keys I speared out of Mayport years ago that weighed 26 pounds. There has to be some 30 plus pounders out there in deeper water.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:21 PM   #49
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

I have seen schools of hogfish on ledges out of clearwater! I have seen babies to 26 plus inches now that's from 30 to 75 ft! Hogfish are everywhere in my area! I really don't agree with this data as it's all incorrect or more along the lines of half assed data! Until we get true numbers on our fisheries as a whole things will be better!
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:03 AM   #50
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Do any of you all ever see any number of short lobster off Jax or the Carolinas? A friend of mine dived the Bridge of Lions in St. Augustine one time and said it was loaded with shorts.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:33 AM   #51
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

OK,guys show me a stringer from anyone anywhere in the Keys that looks like one of my stringers thats less than 10 years old,20 years old...Bueller...anyone?

The size has declined down there,anyone got any total catch numbers commercially down there?I'd like to see just how many are landed down there since there are so many.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:21 AM   #52
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Impaler

Of course you can still find some decent hogs if you "know where to go" and that is the problem. Years ago you did not have to know where to go as decent size hogs were on every piece of hard bottom on south side of the Keys. The know where to go argument can be used for every fish in decline from bluefin tuna to cod.

The data is never going to be perfect--you just have to deal with it and correct it when you can. To penalize others up the coast for overfishing fishing problems in the Keys is not the way to properly manage a fishery.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:55 PM   #53
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

SUMMERLAND:

You are being too nice. JFJF is an argumentative ass that is actually fairly intellegent, but makes stupid statements that make him appear stupid. His distorted logic is designed to piss off people, not contribute to a constructive discussion. Slowboat, on the other hand, is just plain stupid, but thinks he is smart. His comments about lobster migrating from the Keys to Mexico says it all.
JFJF and Slowboat should team up. They could solve all the world's problems.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:56 PM   #54
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100days-a-year View Post
skinneej,I see them so small there they look like ornamentals.Has a lot to do with what type bottom you dive and where.Ledge hogs average bigger but fewer are real big or real small.

Interesting that Mike,Don and I agree on most points.
Yep, but you are a good bit further south than me. I'm wondering if most of our hogs come from your waters...
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:03 PM   #55
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
Do any of you all ever see any number of short lobster off Jax or the Carolinas? A friend of mine dived the Bridge of Lions in St. Augustine one time and said it was loaded with shorts.
I've only seen 2 shorts and they were both in the same hole.

Granted, I have only been diving since 2003, but I have several hundred dives in SC.

That being said, they do carry eggs (usually in July\Aug\Sept). My speculation is that the eggs here probably don't ever hatch, or hatch in conditions that do not allow for the hatchlings (larvae???) to survive.

Also, we do have a good bit of live bottom in 50', but I seldom see lobsters in less than 75' of water out of Charleston. My speculation is that they are born south of here and "walk" up the coast following the reef zones which typically correlate with depth zones.
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:10 PM   #56
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

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Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
But if you know where to go, there are hogs around the patch reefs up to 3lbs year round.
.
That's a baby. I don't shoot them in our waters unless they are at least 7-8 lbs. No law, just self control.

Again, if you don't believe that overfishing is happening in the keys, then nothing will ever convince you that overfishing is even possible. The keys are the poster child for overfishing in the US.

Heck, you can even tell by the body language of the fish in the keys. When a 12" hogfish basically shits himself upon seeing a diver, that's a pretty good reason to suspect pressure. Meanwhile, in the Carolinas, a hogfish that size would probably eat out of your hand.

Again, if I was the president, the size limit on hogs would be 13" in 2014. After a couple of years, it would go up to 14". I would keep repeating that cycle until you see some sort of diminishing returns.

As already stated on here, if you are going to wait on "real science" to support good common sense, you are going to be waiting a real long time...
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:19 PM   #57
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
Impaler

Of course you can still find some decent hogs if you "know where to go" and that is the problem. Years ago you did not have to know where to go as decent size hogs were on every piece of hard bottom on south side of the Keys. The know where to go argument can be used for every fish in decline from bluefin tuna to cod.

The data is never going to be perfect--you just have to deal with it and correct it when you can. To penalize others up the coast for overfishing fishing problems in the Keys is not the way to properly manage a fishery.
I think that the worst part of this is that the SSC uses hogfish as a baseline comparison for other stocks like Red Snapper. They understand that hogfish are overfished in the keys and use the "age structure" argument to support this (which I believe is proper in that case).

Then, they look at Red Snapper, which has been exploding in the SA since WELL BEFORE the closure and since before I started diving (I've always fished) but do not understand that the "age structure" is showing them something entirely different. You see, when a population can double it's size in one year (which we KNOW this to be true for red snapper), of course 50% of the population is going to be young fish (because of the double). And then when it doubles the following year, then 50% of the population is year 1 fish and 25% is year 2 fish (a double on a double). If you graphed that out, you would see a hyperbolic graph biased towards YOUNG fish. That's EXACTLY what you SHOULD expect when a fish population is recovering at a rapid pace. But instead of seeing this trend, they apply the "age structure" graph as they understand it for hogfish and assume it's due to ongoing overfishing.

They will see one day what I am talking about, but it will require them to step outside of the box to realize this....

That being said, I think that 2012-2013 will go down as another great "year class" for red snapper.

Last edited by skinneej; 01-05-2014 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:30 PM   #58
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by skinneej View Post
That's a baby. I don't shoot them in our waters unless they are at least 7-8 lbs. No law, just self control
your fishery is much different than ours, hogfish are known to be much larger in north and south carolina than the keys in the first place.
I am surprised to hear that you have such huge hogs in shallow water areas to freedive and spearfish.
If you are talking about hogs that you scuba for in 100' of water- we don't shoot tiny hogs on scuba either.
the keys shallow coral heads do not equate deep SC reefs at all.
apples and oranges
either way keep the law out of it! all they do is screw it up
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:40 PM   #59
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Skinneej;

I think it is called shifting base lines. Anyone that thinks a 12 inch hogfish is a decent fish and the size limit does not need to be raised does not have a clue.

The Keys are beat--sure you can find a few nice fish if you know where to go. The new breed of go pro wearing "dive heros" think all is fine if they can go out all day and spear a handful of legal size grouper. You still have a decent fishery up north--we do not.

Last edited by Summerland Key; 01-05-2014 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:45 PM   #60
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Re: The SEDAR 37 Hogfish Assessment Thread 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
your fishery is much different than ours, hogfish are known to be much larger in north and south carolina than the keys in the first place.
I am surprised to hear that you have such huge hogs in shallow water areas to freedive and spearfish.
If you are talking about hogs that you scuba for in 100' of water- we don't shoot tiny hogs on scuba either.
the keys shallow coral heads do not equate deep SC reefs at all.
apples and oranges
either way keep the law out of it! all they do is screw it up
My freediving experience is in the keys and in the Bahamas... Heck, even if you compare the Bahamas to the keys you can see a huge difference. And the charts above already show a difference between the tortugas and the keys. Also, what do you mean by "apples and oranges"? I'm not sure I am following your logic as to why I cannot draw a correlation between the two... The problem with the keys\south florida can be summed up by one word "accessibility". That's the entire issue. The fishing grounds are too accessible and there aren't many places a hogfish can hide (except behind a minimum size limit). Even 100' is still just a few miles from shore and you can get there in a kayak if you want to... All of the fish down there are tightly concentrated in well known areas close to high populations...

Yes, the "law" isn't perfect, but you wouldn't have ANYTHING left in the keys if there weren't some sort of regulations in place. Tragedy of the commons...
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