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Northern Atlantic: New England States An area for the cold water divers of the New England States.

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Old 04-20-2020, 06:07 PM   #46
TriggerNJ
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

The reason I personally believe the general trend to be heading down is because everything sort of lines up in a general sense. My own observations through time, other people whose experiences I've come to respect, and researchers data all factor in.

Without writing a book nobody wants to read for good reason here's one example where observation and data meet for me....

I like the young of the year and juvenile surveys best because I think of all the data that gets presented that it's the most accurate for variety reasons. From the personal observation side.... If I follow that yoy just in itself it's actually kind of amazing how it jives with personnel observation. For example we knew we were in for a treat when we had periods of high recruitment that was recorded in young surveys. Sure enough they started showing up in the migration as hordes of a few different size class bass in numbers I had never seen previously. You knew they were going to all turn into large adults spaced relatively close together. Sure enough that happened too. An incredible boom in bass fishing followed the trend peaking with the resurgence of huge numbers of big bass.

Now recently from personal observation I've been seeing the opposite. There's still relatively speaking mobs of big bass and nobody should have expected the insanity of the earlier 2000's to just continue on without dipping. However, it seems the slide has been one directional with it becoming a bit more evident with each passing year. It also seems there's a few gaps in the abundance of certain size young bass that's become noticeable. Now if I then look at the surveys they are reflecting lower recruitment over a significant enough period of time. My observations and the recruitment seem to be both pointing the same direction so I tend to believe down is what's happening.

The other end of the equation the whole take/mortality portion is much much more shaky to me. I've seen the explosion of bass fishing as well as the numbers of bass rise though. So in short, it's not extremely hard for me to believe that take/mortality is high enough with the current level of fishing to outpace more recent recruitment to some degree. This needs much better and more accurate data in my opinion but we have what we have. The fishing effort is a good thing in my opinion though to some extent. If you have a fishery with a ton people and good number of diehards dedicated to that particular fish spending insane amounts of money you can bet that besides a major catastrophe it's not going to get ignored for long enough to see a frightening decline.

Granted from my observation point which was basically the bottom of the fishery the increase was much more apparent and easy to see in personal observation then a slow downward trend would ever be. Especially this early into a decline.

I'm not saying I believe bass are not in abundance or that the fishery is in "danger." I do believe though that there's enough signs and for enough time that it warrants a bit of a course correction if we want to enjoy bass abundance on the level we've recently become accustomed too. I believe that if we are all willing we could maintain the bass fishery at a very high level indefinitely while avoiding any painfully long rebuilding stages. I don't love regulations and I don't love an over size fish regulation for obvious spearing reasons. However if skewing the protection towards large females while cutting overall take turns out to be the quickest way to reverse the trend I don't have a major problem trying it. It's not necessarily permanent. I can still eat bass in the meantime if I choose to and I don't believe it will collapse the charter industry. Annoying and may have been preventable with a quicker response but I'm not up in arms over it. The whole thing will be revisited and we can all judge the results.
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:51 AM   #47
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

everybody knows where the fish are , a certain spot off r.i. untouchable in federal waters.
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Old 04-21-2020, 10:12 AM   #48
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

That's large portion of the population of the biggest adult fish summering right there. Quite a sight to see especially while diving. Untouchable but very far from untouched in reality.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:38 AM   #49
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

https://www.thefisherman.com/index.c...82&ParentCat=2

Everyone seems so certain the stock is in dire trouble. Are people just ignoring the last 2 gps studies where fish tagged close to shore in the NY area both showed up well offshore? Seems like a lot of shore based/close to shore divers/anglers are certain that the stock is in a bad place. Could it be they have just moved? This part is anecdotal but it seems like the bait is moving offshore..

In a previous life I worked for the DEM doing stock assessments. I have seen how these studies are conducted. There is a ton of room for error. I still feel we should have just upped the minimum size to avoid the inevitable deaths of 10% of released fish. Nothing worse than unusable by-catch deaths.

Also for the people complaining about trophy fish.. Do you not have competition between friends? Any pride in taking the biggest fish in your group? They still taste good, can sell for more, and are more exciting to land. They have already had the opportunity to reporoduce many times. The experience is great but the end result is too.
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:44 AM   #50
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

I don't think anyone including researchers are thinking the stock is in any condition even approaching dire trouble. If they are then thats sort of a red flag for me that the person is leveraging a manageable downtrend to work for their real agenda.

Thanks, good article. I would love to see larger scale gps tracking studies. Here in NJ a few people that spend quite bit of time out there have known for long time that bass were spending time offshore. A certain area 25 miles offshore or so would regularly get large schools of bass showing up for periods of time. I wonder if it's a case where it's always been going on or a seasonal movement thats really begun to increase substantially. Theres never ending opportunity to learn more. This is another reason I like the surveys around the spawning of bass. It's one thing we know they have to do for sure. This is actually pretty lucky in terms of being able to get a reasonable piece of the puzzle on what's going on in the stock during a given time period.


I don't have an inherent problem with the want for big fish like some do. I like big fish. Big fish are impressive and you're right it's ton fun that surrounds the whole big fish chase. It just doesn't bother me quite as much as it does other people.

I don't love a size cap limit but I can see the catch 22 in just upping the size limit. If you up the size limit you're not necessarily going to avoid any of the release mortality for instance. It could work quite the opposite especially in areas that see a lot of smaller fish for long portions of the season. You would have to "shop" the bigger size thus releasing more fish than you otherwise would have in order to obtain your legal keeper. I don't how big of deal all that really is however in effecting release numbers anyway though. There's ton who just catch, release or keep a fish only once while etc. I'm a bit doubtful if any size regulations are going to have huge impact on the release mortality numbers. People like to catch its just plain fun and large part of what it's all about. There is nothing better than a day where you couldn't keep them off the hook. I think the more convincing argument for excluding the biggest of fish in the management approach is the biological one. The biggest bass are almost all female, they are a long lived fish, not unusually fast growing, and the largest females by ratio are much more productive than a smaller female. I can acknowledge that there is a thought process in reversing a trend with this strategy that takes into account other aspects besides just cutting quota. So if this looks like it might be the quickest route back to stabilization or reversing trends I'm fine with giving it a go.
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Old 04-23-2020, 07:07 AM   #51
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

"In a previous life I worked for the DEM doing stock assessments. I have seen how these studies are conducted. There is a ton of room for error".that`s it exactly.
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Old 04-23-2020, 11:03 AM   #52
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

Quote:
"In a previous life I worked for the DEM doing stock assessments. I have seen how these studies are conducted. There is a ton of room for error".that`s it exactly.
I don't think anyone disagrees that there are areas open to large scale errors.
What exactly does "thats it" mean for you?

Some questions....

Who has said there isn't error issues with the methods of data collection?

Do you believe that each method/aspect of assessment has errors large enough to miss the general trends of the stock?

When they are looked at in total do you believe they miss the trend?

What type of assessment would you accept as accurate enough to justify making management decisions?

What do you believe should be done with the assessment we have?

Do you believe the striped bass stock is experiencing a slow downtrend or not and why?


Quote:
https://www.thefisherman.com/index.c...82&ParentCat=2

Everyone seems so certain the stock is in dire trouble. Are people just ignoring the last 2 gps studies where fish tagged close to shore in the NY area both showed up well offshore? Seems like a lot of shore based/close to shore divers/anglers are certain that the stock is in a bad place. Could it be they have just moved? This part is anecdotal but it seems like the bait is moving offshore..

In a previous life I worked for the DEM doing stock assessments. I have seen how these studies are conducted. There is a ton of room for error. I still feel we should have just upped the minimum size to avoid the inevitable deaths of 10% of released fish. Nothing worse than unusable by-catch deaths.

Also for the people complaining about trophy fish.. Do you not have competition between friends? Any pride in taking the biggest fish in your group? They still taste good, can sell for more, and are more exciting to land. They have already had the opportunity to reporoduce many times. The experience is great but the end result is too.
My 2 cent rant....

He's thinking above about the balance of what the user wants vs quality of available data vs what we don't know. Constructive rational ideas. We may not agree on everything or what if anything should be done with what info we do have but he doesn't appear to be condemning management as a whole or coming at it with a "you don't know nothing for sure so let's just revert to what I prefer attitude." It's that type of attitude I just don't get if you indeed care about the future. Unfortunately it seems to be the knee jerk reaction. I see it among friends who I know for sure have limited knowledge of the fish and when pressed for an explanation as to why don't really have a reason as to why thats their reaction.
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Old 04-24-2020, 06:41 AM   #53
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

no knee jerk reaction ,just common sense.
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Old 04-24-2020, 03:33 PM   #54
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw11 View Post
Also for the people complaining about trophy fish.. Do you not have competition between friends? Any pride in taking the biggest fish in your group? They still taste good, can sell for more, and are more exciting to land. They have already had the opportunity to reporoduce many times. The experience is great but the end result is too.
Regarding competition driving the desire to land large bass - its exactly the cultural problem that I think we need to address. I understand that friendly competition amongst peers is enjoyable. I think that there are plenty of other places where it is appropriate to be competitive or to do it more ethically. Gathering a variety of species would be a good example of keeping some degree of competition while diving if you insisted. Freedive training is another component of spearfishing that has room for competition (albeit with an enormously larger emphasis on safety).

It is our responsibility as stewards of the ocean to not only participate in sound conservation practices, but also to promote a culture that does so. I'll speak for myself that no, my friends and I don't push each other to shoot the biggest possible bass. I'm certainly excited for my friends if they feel they have achieved a significant accomplishment in shooting a large fish, but I am in no way making them feel that it is an essential part of the experience. As a prior collegiate athlete, I understand competition amongst peers and the enjoyment you can gain. Competition isn't the only way to enjoy spearfishing. I would boldly make the suggestion that if a person's drive when spearfishing is to shoot the largest fish to out-compete their friends, they are spearfishing for the wrong reasons and misrepresenting the very core of what spearfishing is supposed to be all about.

I'm not suggesting a trophy fish should never be appropriate. It should be a careful decision made completely separate from a desire to out-spear your friends. Is the value of taking that large fish out of the population worth whatever gain you deem it poses?

I'm posing all of this because I think these are important considerations that we don't talk about often enough as a community.
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Old 04-24-2020, 07:17 PM   #55
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

Quote:
no knee jerk reaction ,just common sense.
Care to explain the common sense take on it a bit?

I don't think anyone has an idea what it is you do believe or think about the subject beyond that you don't like it.

...and I could say that about everyone as nobody actually likes it
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:00 AM   #56
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

common sense says that "experts" in 3 surrounding states all come up with different seasons ,size and bag limits.what i think about it ,is that you have people making up rules based on incorrect and misleading data.
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Old 04-25-2020, 09:26 AM   #57
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

They came up with 3 different ways to meet a reduction quota that was vetted and voted on. It will be measured and adjusted if needed at the end of the season.
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Old 04-25-2020, 10:00 AM   #58
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

Quote:
common sense says that "experts" in 3 surrounding states all come up with different seasons ,size and bag limits.what i think about it ,is that you have people making up rules based on incorrect and misleading data.
Again, as vague as you could possibly be about it except you don't like it.

Maybe small bites....whats your issue with the seasons?



2020 Regulations by state sourced from On The Water magazine
(they appear to be correct)

State Mod/Region Size Limit Bag Limit Open Season Notes

ME All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

NH All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

MA All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year


RI All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

CT All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

NY Ocean 28″ to < 35″ 1 4/15 – 12/15 Incl. Hudson below GW Bridge
NY Hudson River 18″ to < 28″ 1 4/1 – 11/30 Incl. Hudson above GW Bridge

NJ All 28” to < 38” 1 All Year
NJ Bonus Program 24” to < 28” 1 5/15-12/31 For tag holders only

PA DE Estuary 28″ to < 35″ 1 1/1 – 3/31
6/1 – 12/31
PA DE Estuary 21″ to < 24″ 2 4/1 – 5/31
PA DE River (NonTidal) 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

DE Ocean 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year CR only on spawning grounds 4.1 -5.31
DE Bay, River, Tribs 20″ to < 25″ 1 7/1 – 8/31

MD Ocean 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year
MD Chesapeake Bay Spring 35” min 1 5/1 – 5/15 Spring trophy season
MD Chesapeake Bay Spring Catch and Release 0 March No targeting during all of April
MD Chesapeake Bay Summer, fall and winter measures are still in the decision process.

DC All 18″ min 1 5/16 – 12/31
PRFC Spring Trophy 35″ min 1 5/1 – 5/15 Downstream of Rt. 301 bridge
PRFC Fall 20″ min 2 5/16 – 7/6
8/21 – 12/31

No targeting during July and August closure
VA Ocean 28″ to <= 36″ 1 1/1 – 3/31
5/16 – 12/31


VA Bay 20″ to <= 36″ 1 5/16 – 6/15
10/4 – 12/31


NC All 28″ to < 35″ 1 All Year

https://www.onthewater.com/news/2020...ns-at-a-glance
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Old 04-25-2020, 10:22 AM   #59
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

Quote:
They came up with 3 different ways to meet a reduction quota that was vetted and voted on. It will be measured and adjusted if needed at the end of the season.
It''s a "recommendation" from Atlantic States to the states that they then can adopt, submit differing plan for the state including equivalent cuts subject to approval, or fall out of compliance.
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Old 04-25-2020, 02:14 PM   #60
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Re: ASMFC Atlantic Striped Bass Board Approves Addendum VI

from on the water magazine
Commercial fishermen will only be able to retain fish measuring 35” or greater, whereas recreational fishermen will only be able to retain fish measuring 28” to less than 35”

No changes are being made to the commercial fishing season or bag limits. The commercial fishery will open on June 24, with a 15-fish possession limit for commercial fishermen fishing under the authority of a boat-based permit and aboard the named vessel, and a 2-fish possession limit for all other commercial fishermen.

i thought the idea was to keep the big breeding fish around.while we are underwater and trying to judge 28 to 35 ,r&r guys will be throwing back fish that will probably die if they are not handled correctly.

catch and release kills more fish then people keep
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