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Old 01-27-2011, 12:25 PM   #1
Mike B
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We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:24:11 -0800
From: "Steve Benavides" <steve@sgbcpa.com>
To: <news@ocdiving.com>
Subject: [OC Diving -News] Cross posting W/o permission
Message-ID: <DCC33E106CE98544BD5C98D3F7D28CE60E14AA@sb-2k3.sgbcpa.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Welcome to the club doctor Bill!

If you want to find out just how secure e-mail communications are on OC
Diving.com, just mosey on over to Spearboard.com (why am I betting that
that is the site that you're referring to?) And do a search for posts
using my name. You will find many, many cross postings from posts I have
directed to OC Diving.com lifted in their entirety and subjected to
ridicule and selective dissection. I especially liked some of the parts
where they get into personal attacks and was especially appreciative of
one famous halibut killer who was posting on their websites his hope
that I would die a long, slow, lingering death from cancer. This was
especially fun to hear and read while I was sitting at an oncologist's
office waiting to have my pelvis drilled for bone marrow biopsies.
Since it turns out I don't have cancer I do hope he is bitterly
disappointed. Probably almost as disappointed as he was that his
obstructionist position on MLPAs was soundly rejected as the South Coast
regional program moved to conclusion! I got them all forwarded to me
right away because like you, my son is a spear fisherman, and he lurks
on Spearboard under an assumed name and forwards the posts to me.

E-mail is a powerful tool. We started using it in 1995 to bring together
diverse elements and supporters of abalone conservation and it
culminated in the formation of a broad state alliance among all the
sport diving groups and passage of legislation which led to the abalone
recovery and management act and the current protection schemes. From the
very beginning, we found out that what we said was finding its way to
places not intended, even though we had previously sworn all the group
members to secrecy. Anything reduced to writing seems to have the
ability to live a life of its own. From that point on I have always
drafted every post which I put on a public board such as OC Diving, as
one that I would also be willing to have printed in a newspaper of
general circulation. So when I say something I directed to scuba board,
divebums, or OC Diving posted on another location yeah, it bothers me,
but it's the price we pay to live in information rich society where some
continue to bend or outright ignore the rules of civility. I personally
do my best to respect people's privacy since I still want to believe
that what goes around, comes around.

Besides Bill, if they are shooting at you, you must be something doing
something really good! Keep up the good work! No good deed goes
unpunished...

Stephen G. Benavides

steve@sgbcpa.com
949-474-7427

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:39 PM   #2
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

I guess this really isn't a surprise- we've often been told how we were being watched by people who are against spear fishing, and this is just one example.

If nothing else, we should consider this statement from him:

Quote:
Anything reduced to writing seems to have the
ability to live a life of its own. From that point on I have always
drafted every post which I put on a public board such as OC Diving, as
one that I would also be willing to have printed in a newspaper of
general circulation.
It may be fun to make outrageous statements, but we should consider how they can be taken out of context and used against us. As bad as things are now with the upcoming MPAs, there is plenty of room for it to get even worse in the future, and we shouldn't provide ammunition. We need to act responsibly and present ourselves that way.
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:48 PM   #3
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Hey Bill check your PM.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:06 PM   #4
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McIntyre View Post
It may be fun to make outrageous statements, but we should consider how they can be taken out of context and used against us. As bad as things are now with the upcoming MPAs, there is plenty of room for it to get even worse in the future, and we shouldn't provide ammunition. We need to act responsibly and present ourselves that way.
Agreed.

I've noticed that California forum only goes back 60 pages (which translates to some time in October of 2010), I don't suppose that anything older than October 2010 is no longer searchable on Google, is it? Seems like it'd be nice to have a feature to lock or hide or otherwise render inaccessible without a specific and concerted effort posts from before a certain time period. Tony?

Last edited by ApneaAddict; 01-27-2011 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:13 PM   #5
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

that writer steve is a little egotistical about his writing and self worth and if what he writes is so Newspapers worthy maybe he otta copy write his material. ...narcissism
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:04 PM   #6
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Guys,

Without commenting on the legal angle ('cuz you all ain't paying me for it) or the instant quoting issue, I'll comment another aspect.

This has to do with civility.

We have to be able to disagree with people's position while remaining civil. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

I use the word "enemy" loosely. Despite obvious differences, we also have a lot in common with many in the non-consumptive scuba community and the environmental movement. Never burn bridges. If BP manages to get a permit to drill off PV in our WSB hunting grounds or some tuna farm operation gets a permit to plop tuna pens on the lee side of one of the Channel Islands in our shared diving/hunting grounds, it's not hard to envision alliances forming between people who had differences during the SoCal MLPA process to face this new threat in this example.

For what it's worth, I was very vocal during the MLPA process and I disagreed with many of our opponent's position but I do have respect for their belief and tenacity, as they do for us. I fought their position and their tactics and didn't think too highly of some of the shenanigans pulled by the other side, but I never had, and still don't have, any problem sitting down for a beer with anyone (partly because I also know I can hold my own in any discussion and view it as an opportunity to influence hearts and minds. I just don't have the time to do too much of it). Only one RSG member from the other side took it personally and went up and said nasty things to me at a meeting, and I simply smiled and kept handing out our papers. The rank-and-file from the other side also were less than civil to me on many occasions but I chalked that up to misplaced passion. On the whole, their leaders were civil despite our obvious different positions and our sometimes passionate advocacy.

And believe you me. Many of them are licking their wounds, just like we do. Many of them don't like the result because they thought fishermen got too much, just as we don't like the result because we thought the enviro-nuts got away with murder.

This is step 1 of a long long battle. There will be more attempts at closures, more attempts to close off our spearing grounds and choke off our way of living.

We need all the friends we can get, or at least as few enemies as possible. The MLPA wrangling phase among stakeholders is over. Time to move on to the next phase and no sense brooding over the past since there's nothing productive we can do about that now. Let it go.

Save your ammo for the next round because you know there will be one.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:18 PM   #7
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McIntyre View Post
It may be fun to make outrageous statements, but we should consider how they can be taken out of context and used against us. As bad as things are now with the upcoming MPAs, there is plenty of room for it to get even worse in the future, and we shouldn't provide ammunition. We need to act responsibly and present ourselves that way.
yes bill is right its called the 5 year review
and unless you got big money and time to fund your own selective targeted studies
don't let spearfishing as a selective method of take become a target
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:26 PM   #8
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Guys,

Without commenting on the legal angle ('cuz you all ain't paying me for it) or the instant quoting issue, I'll comment another aspect.

This has to do with civility.

We have to be able to disagree with people's position while remaining civil. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

I use the word "enemy" loosely. Despite obvious differences, we also have a lot in common with many in the non-consumptive scuba community and the environmental movement. Never burn bridges. If BP manages to get a permit to drill off PV in our WSB hunting grounds or some tuna farm operation gets a permit to plop tuna pens on the lee side of one of the Channel Islands in our shared diving/hunting grounds, it's not hard to envision alliances forming between people who had differences during the SoCal MLPA process to face this new threat in this example.

For what it's worth, I was very vocal during the MLPA process and I disagreed with many of our opponent's position but I do have respect for their belief and tenacity, as they do for us. I fought their position and their tactics and didn't think too highly of some of the shenanigans pulled by the other side, but I never had, and still don't have, any problem sitting down for a beer with anyone (partly because I also know I can hold my own in any discussion and view it as an opportunity to influence hearts and minds. I just don't have the time to do too much of it). Only one RSG member from the other side took it personally and went up and said nasty things to me at a meeting, and I simply smiled and kept handing out our papers. The rank-and-file from the other side also were less than civil to me on many occasions but I chalked that up to misplaced passion. On the whole, their leaders were civil despite our obvious different positions and our sometimes passionate advocacy.

And believe you me. Many of them are licking their wounds, just like we do. Many of them don't like the result because they thought fishermen got too much, just as we don't like the result because we thought the enviro-nuts got away with murder.

This is step 1 of a long long battle. There will be more attempts at closures, more attempts to close off our spearing grounds and choke off our way of living.

We need all the friends we can get, or at least as few enemies as possible. The MLPA wrangling phase among stakeholders is over. Time to move on to the next phase and no sense brooding over the past since there's nothing productive we can do about that now. Let it go.

Save your ammo for the next round because you know there will be one.
Class. Every time.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:58 PM   #9
Sean E
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Yahhh, it's no wonder every thing gets closed when people constantly talk and/or joke about shooting fish all day long and shorts and bs like that.

I am glad the guy doesn't have cancer though. Maybe he should lower his stress level, stop worrying about the reefs and fish and more about his livelihood? :P
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:02 PM   #10
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltierdog View Post
yes bill is right its called the 5 year review
and unless you got big money and time to fund your own selective targeted studies
don't let spearfishing as a selective method of take become a target
Prblem is that our selectivity can and will be used against us.. to wit: "spearos only take big breeders and do more damage per capita"

If you think any minor exemptions we have gotten will last, you are sorely mistaken.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:07 PM   #11
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean E View Post
Yahhh, it's no wonder every thing gets closed when people constantly talk and/or joke about shooting fish all day long and shorts and bs like that.

I am glad the guy doesn't have cancer though. Maybe he should lower his stress level, stop worrying about the reefs and fish and more about his livelihood? :P

Naw. The problem with that lying SOS is that he is such a narccist that he actualy believes he personally has destroyed the environment as a spearo in his younger days, and is determined to stop the rest of us.

The only difference he has ever made for the environment is negative as he is now forcing people to buy fish from nonregulated, environment destroying fisheries in third world countries instead of from well managed sustainable fisheries locally.


He's helped injure our already damagesd economy, pushed through racist, bigoted legislation, and done a hell of a lot to ensure worldwide fisheries will be damaged far worse than if he had never gotten involved. Just a bad person on about every level I can imagine.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:08 PM   #12
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5869 View Post
class. Every time.
+1
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:20 PM   #13
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Let me offer a different perspective Joe.

To these people, Steve B included, the idea of "compromise" on fishing is for them to close every last inch of california to fishing, and to allow us to keep our guns in case we can afford to travel to other countries to spearfish.

In short, they do not beilieve in compromise at all. The only reason we were able to save the 10% of diveable coastal reef had NOTHING at all to do with our efforts at working with them and 100% to do with us showing up in numbers that were 10 times greater than the environutss like Steve did.

Personally I find it very frightening when people start talking about working with people like Steve B and his cohorts. The reason is people like us do so in good faith, and people like Steve B will use the fact we actually believe in compromise for the greater good against us.

They will take every bit we give them, help and ground we give up in good faith that they will be willing to give up some of the areas they want.

Only problem is that they won't.

Think about it as bargaining on the price of a something:

Spearos "50 bucks"
Environazis "100 dollars"
Spearos "60"
Environazis "100"
Spearos "65"
Enviros " Tell you what, you come up to 75 and meet us halfway, we'll come down too"
Spearos "Ok... 75"
Environazis " Ha Ha suckers!!!! We were Lying!!! 110 dollars!!!!"

People like this are just not ethical, they do not work in good faith, and will use any and all good faith efforts we put into working with them against us. That's the simple truth, and as such, because they have no honor whatsoever, they are not worth working with, associating with, or anything other than watching closely like the rabid animals they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Guys,

Without commenting on the legal angle ('cuz you all ain't paying me for it) or the instant quoting issue, I'll comment another aspect.

This has to do with civility.

We have to be able to disagree with people's position while remaining civil. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

I use the word "enemy" loosely. Despite obvious differences, we also have a lot in common with many in the non-consumptive scuba community and the environmental movement. Never burn bridges. If BP manages to get a permit to drill off PV in our WSB hunting grounds or some tuna farm operation gets a permit to plop tuna pens on the lee side of one of the Channel Islands in our shared diving/hunting grounds, it's not hard to envision alliances forming between people who had differences during the SoCal MLPA process to face this new threat in this example.

For what it's worth, I was very vocal during the MLPA process and I disagreed with many of our opponent's position but I do have respect for their belief and tenacity, as they do for us. I fought their position and their tactics and didn't think too highly of some of the shenanigans pulled by the other side, but I never had, and still don't have, any problem sitting down for a beer with anyone (partly because I also know I can hold my own in any discussion and view it as an opportunity to influence hearts and minds. I just don't have the time to do too much of it). Only one RSG member from the other side took it personally and went up and said nasty things to me at a meeting, and I simply smiled and kept handing out our papers. The rank-and-file from the other side also were less than civil to me on many occasions but I chalked that up to misplaced passion. On the whole, their leaders were civil despite our obvious different positions and our sometimes passionate advocacy.

And believe you me. Many of them are licking their wounds, just like we do. Many of them don't like the result because they thought fishermen got too much, just as we don't like the result because we thought the enviro-nuts got away with murder.

This is step 1 of a long long battle. There will be more attempts at closures, more attempts to close off our spearing grounds and choke off our way of living.

We need all the friends we can get, or at least as few enemies as possible. The MLPA wrangling phase among stakeholders is over. Time to move on to the next phase and no sense brooding over the past since there's nothing productive we can do about that now. Let it go.

Save your ammo for the next round because you know there will be one.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:50 PM   #14
zenspearo
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphthehalibut View Post
Let me offer a different perspective Joe.

To these people, Steve B included, the idea of "compromise" on fishing is for them to close every last inch of california to fishing, and to allow us to keep our guns in case we can afford to travel to other countries to spearfish.

In short, they do not beilieve in compromise at all. The only reason we were able to save the 10% of diveable coastal reef had NOTHING at all to do with our efforts at working with them and 100% to do with us showing up in numbers that were 10 times greater than the environutss like Steve did.

Personally I find it very frightening when people start talking about working with people like Steve B and his cohorts. The reason is people like us do so in good faith, and people like Steve B will use the fact we actually believe in compromise for the greater good against us.

They will take every bit we give them, help and ground we give up in good faith that they will be willing to give up some of the areas they want.

Only problem is that they won't.

Think about it as bargaining on the price of a something:

Spearos "50 bucks"
Environazis "100 dollars"
Spearos "60"
Environazis "100"
Spearos "65"
Enviros " Tell you what, you come up to 75 and meet us halfway, we'll come down too"
Spearos "Ok... 75"
Environazis " Ha Ha suckers!!!! We were Lying!!! 110 dollars!!!!"

People like this are just not ethical, they do not work in good faith, and will use any and all good faith efforts we put into working with them against us. That's the simple truth, and as such, because they have no honor whatsoever, they are not worth working with, associating with, or anything other than watching closely like the rabid animals they are.
Since when did "working" become "giving"? LOL.

When you receive a nice polite letter on some law firm's letterhead politely inviting you to give them a call to discuss a matter and work together to resolve it, rest assured very little "giving" is intended. Despite the polite language, that's the knife being unsheathed. That's my perspective and daily reality. Heck, I sent out a few of those nice letters yesterday.

Here's what I always tell people. If we don't engage, we automatically forfeit. In either case, pouting, stomping, and ranting get us nowhere. It may make us feel good for that instant, but it's corrosive and unproductive.

I fail to see how your current approach to antagonizing people, especially those involved in past proceedings who are no longer relevant to the process, would produce results. Without commenting on what's already in the past, RSG members, such as Steve B., are largely irrelevant now to the current and future phases of this process. The South Coast RSGs have been disbanded months and months ago. Save your firepower for situations that matter.

What's more, everyone has at least a friend who has at least a friend and so on. When you antagonize somebody, you risk alienating others. May be some unknown person you don't even know now who can help us in the future. Not that I have any qualms about calling someone an ass to their face and tell them to go take a hike when it would serve a purpose toward my goal. But it's foolish to create enemies or prolong antagonism when there are no strategic reasons to do so.

May be I'm missing something???
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:51 PM   #15
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Re: We are being watched, ocdiving.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenspearo View Post
Since when did "working" become "giving"? LOL.

When you receive a nice polite letter on some law firm's letterhead politely inviting you to give them a call to discuss a matter and work together to resolve it, rest assured very little "giving" is intended. Despite the polite language, that's the knife being unsheathed. That's my perspective and daily reality. Heck, I sent out a few of those nice letters yesterday.

Here's what I always tell people. If we don't engage, we automatically forfeit. In either case, pouting, stomping, and ranting get us nowhere. It may make us feel good for that instant, but it's corrosive and unproductive.

I fail to see how your current approach to antagonizing people, especially those involved in past proceedings who are no longer relevant to the process, would produce results. Without commenting on what's already in the past, RSG members, such as Steve B., are largely irrelevant now to the current and future phases of this process. The South Coast RSGs have been disbanded months and months ago. Save your firepower for situations that matter.

What's more, everyone has at least a friend who has at least a friend and so on. When you antagonize somebody, you risk alienating others. May be some unknown person you don't even know now who can help us in the future. Not that I have any qualms about calling someone an ass to their face and tell them to go take a hike when it would serve a purpose toward my goal. But it's foolish to create enemies or prolong antagonism when there are no strategic reasons to do so.

May be I'm missing something???
I think this day and age city,state, and federal agencies do not care anymore in this day and age. They do as they want. The best way to get what we want is push back like Dave is doing. Take a look around people are upset with the way our country is being run. It is corrupt at all levels and they are taking advantage of it till we step up and do something.
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