Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > United States Geographical Locations > Florida Gulfcoast Spearfishing

Florida Gulfcoast Spearfishing Post here to discuss regional action or issues about spearing on Florida's Gulfcoast.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 12 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 05-31-2012, 10:35 PM   #91
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by diverlen View Post
Chiung, I was just wondering if you are a commercial fisherman? Legitimate question.
No, I'm not.
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:56 PM   #92
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
Whether or not they have rebounded is not in question. How much have they rebounded really is the question.
That's exactly my point. I am also of the opinion that these diet studies are of less import than answering this important question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
Just using your science, GG reach maturity at a meter in length.
You may be right - I was basing my idea of maturity on this quote - "They are usually around 400 pounds when mature." from Wikipedia, but reading some more I see the maturity at a meter cited more often. The fish shown in the Dykoke video are definitely over a meter, but by no means 400 pounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
All science suggest that AT maturity, they are going to eat what they eat forever..
I'd be slightly interested in seeing this science - like I said earlier, I think this BS about what they eat is not as important as how many of them are out there now.
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:07 PM   #93
Shaft'o'death
Maverick
 
Shaft'o'death's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Posts: 1,098
Send a message via AIM to Shaft'o'death
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiung View Post
That's exactly my point. I am also of the opinion that these diet studies are of less import than answering this important question.



You may be right - I was basing my idea of maturity on this quote - "They are usually around 400 pounds when mature." from Wikipedia, but reading some more I see the maturity at a meter cited more often. The fish shown in the Dykoke video are definitely over a meter, but by no means 400 pounds.



I'd be slightly interested in seeing this science - like I said earlier, I think this BS about what they eat is not as important as how many of them are out there now.
I can understand that.. It makes sense to say how many are there.. The question is how many should there be before we say they are sustainable.

And since fisherman were the ones that drove them to the edge of possible extinction, they might not be the best to help determine when the GG have crossed back over a threshold that will allow them to thrive..

I am with you and I DON'T believe all the scientist that want to save the entire world, but in a case like this it is a bit different. Here is why..

I have done much reading on old newspaper stories and other references that I can find.. I have NEVER found a single quote or attributable remark by a fisherman that said he/she wanted to protect the GG..

This tells me that even those who were hunting them, did not want to protect them.. If that is the case, they shouldn't have a say now.. If you were part of the problem, you are not allowed to be part of the reversal process..

Now, I am sure there were some fisherman out there that were behind the effort to protect them.. But, they are rare..
__________________
There is room for all of God's creatures, right between the rice and veggies.......
Shaft'o'death is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:10 PM   #94
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
Are you are making the claim that only immature specimens were sampled? I think the definition of mature is generally used to denote sexual maturity, rather than a particular size or weight. I am pretty sure that they have sampled tissue and gut contents from sexually mature specimens.
I was making that claim - yes, based on the Wikipedia article and the size of the fish in the Dykoke video. But as I mentioned in the post above, having read that maturity occurs at roughly one meter TL, I have no problem retracting that claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
We can all argue our personal opinions about what population density is present, what the nursery capacity of the remaining mangrove habitat is and if there was "more before", but I think we should be careful not to make statements that imply that the published research was based only on immature individuals.... unless we know this for a fact... RIGHT?
I'm not advocating anything about what the present population is. I'm advocating for finding out what the present population is. I'm advocating for less diet studies etc so that the focus is back on the population question. But since we seem to be hung up on this diet study, I'm also very carefully making the statement that, based on the data I've seen, and the Dykoke video, the published research appears to me to be substantially based on smaller individuals rather than a statistically valid sample of various sized specimens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
BTW: there were no season on jewfish when the fishery was open.
Thanks for that - and for allowing me to continue to press my point.
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:22 PM   #95
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
It seems like there is a lot of misinformation surrounding the goliath grouper issue.

First: No one has successfully ever raised the Atlantic goliath grouper from eggs, and there is no where to buy fertilized or unfertilized goliath grouper eggs. Yes,some of the pacific species have been raised, and I am sure you can purchase those eggs, but you will never get a permit to introduce an exotic species of grouper in US waters. Although some may be the same genus they are a different species.

Second: Goliath grouper were never listed as endangered by the NMFS or any state in the US. The critically endangered status is a listing by the IUCN and I believe it apppies to everywhere through out the range of goliath grouper, other than Florida.
Don, I know and respect your experience with jewfish. Yes, I used the term endangered based on the IUCN classification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
Third: The stomach contents sampled by Koenig represent the full range of sizes of goliath grouper present today. Although these fish at one time did reach 800 pounds, there are very few of them remaining. Today, 450 pounds is an exceptionally large goliath grouper. The results of these studies are all available on the FSU website.
We have an abundance of Volkswagen Beetle sized jewfish up my way . I read the data on the FSU website (http://www.bio.fsu.edu/coleman_lab/goliath_grouper.php) and it states that stomach contents of over 200 jewfish from south Florida were studied. However, there is no data on the sizes of the fish studied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
Forth: The size at which these fish mature is not 400 pounds as someone incorrectly claims--it is much smaller. Again this is all on the FSU site.
Yes, I stand corrected regarding the size at maturity. However, I still have not seen any data that suggests that the stomach content study was based on a statistically significant variety of different sized fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
It is always good to ask questions and challange the findings of scientists, it keeps them on their toes, but it is also helpful to read all available data. If you google up Koenig-Coleman FSU goliath grouper there is a lot of interesting data to be found. Don
Honestly, the data that I would find most interesting would be population data. I've found some...
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:25 PM   #96
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

"NOAA REMOVES GOLIATH GROUPER FROM SPECIES OF CONCERN LIST"

March 3, 2006 � The NOAA Fisheries Service removed goliath grouper from the species of concern list in early February because a recent status report showed a significant increase in abundance to the U.S. population segment. The report also showed the species is re-establishing throughout its historical range. These positive enhancements are the results of protective management measures established over a decade ago by state and federal agencies. In spite of this information, the stock is still considered to be overfished under the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act.

"This is becoming a success story," Crabtree said. "Federal and state conservation and regulatory measures have prevented elevation of the species to the endangered or threatened status." Management efforts began on the species in the early 1980s when the South Atlantic Fishery Management Council prohibited spearing of the species and the state of Florida implemented an 18-inch minimum size limit to protect juveniles. In 1989, the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council implemented a 50-inch minimum size limit. Finally, both councils and Florida prohibited all harvest of the species from federal and state waters in 1990. Federal fishery management councils and individual state agencies would evaluate future regulatory actions.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2006/s2588.htm
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:38 PM   #97
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

From SEDAR 6 Stock Assessment Report 1. Goliath Grouper http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/down...df?id=DOCUMENT

"We believe the best advice at present for managing the U.S. goliath grouper population should be predicated on the results of the base model (Figures 4 and 5). These indicate that there is about a 50% chance that the population will have recovered to ~s50% by 2006 and about a 95% chance that it will recover by 2012."

From 2007 SEFSC Goliath Status Memo http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/down...df?id=DOCUMENT






It's getting late - going to bed wondering whether this request was granted...
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 11:45 PM   #98
Chiung
Registered Shooter
 
Chiung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 924
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
I have done much reading on old newspaper stories and other references that I can find.. I have NEVER found a single quote or attributable remark by a fisherman that said he/she wanted to protect the GG..

This tells me that even those who were hunting them, did not want to protect them.. If that is the case, they shouldn't have a say now.. If you were part of the problem, you are not allowed to be part of the reversal process..

Now, I am sure there were some fisherman out there that were behind the effort to protect them.. But, they are rare..
Shaft, let me introduce you to Summerland Key, aka Don DeMaria
Chiung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:03 AM   #99
diverlen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tequesta, FL
Posts: 1,191
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Shaft'o'death is correct, the reformed commercial fishermen are rare but Don Demaria is one of them and IMO he is definitely on the right track. I can state from my regular dives off the Palm Beaches that goliath grouper still need protection from all predators, including all kinds of fishing gear.
Chiung, you seem very interested in this matter and I was thinking that maybe you might like to join the research on this subject. I am sure that the effort could use your input.
diverlen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 06:51 AM   #100
Summerland Key
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Florida keys
Posts: 923
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Chiung:
If you want to see many more photos of fish we wpeared in the "good old days" go to this link:

All of this is public information--I gave these photos and data from my log books to the NMFS years ago when several of us realized the population of jewfish was declining rapidily--due, in part, to the actions of folks like us.

Yes, I certainly took more than my share of jewfish, made a living doing so, and never tried to hide that fact. So, I think I know a little about their diet, after gutting so many, when and where they spawn, and most importantly--how easily they could be beaten back to pre-closure levels with an open season. Don
Summerland Key is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 08:37 AM   #101
sos26
Registered User
 
sos26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: york,Pa. St. James City,FL.
Age: 69
Posts: 192
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

wow

I didn't see many tanks on that boat !
__________________
S.O.S.
sos26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 12:41 PM   #102
Biminibill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 418
Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

The best thing about the invention of photography is that it mitigates to some extent the problem of "shifting baselines". Without photos like Don's no one would ever believe what "once was". I remember the week that Don started spearing jewfish off the wrecks in the Gulf all those years ago, shortly after we had been on a commercial spearfishing trip. He found wrecks plastered with jewfish, up to 100 on one wreck alone. He would take a few and move on to another wreck. Of interest were his reports back to me of the huge black grouper that would meet him halfway down his anchor line. Many of the wrecks were also thick with large mangrove snapper and other desirable species. The jewfish AND the other species were all on the same sites. In those days most pleasure boats had no LORAN-C because at the time it was very expensive and only displayed the TD numbers - no graphics like we have now. Word of Don's catches spread rapidly and soon the rush was on - not to selectively take a few fish from a wreck but to take everything. Don's years of hunting jewfish in earnest were few before he realized the fish were in trouble. Although there are some who foolishly condemn Don for hunting the fish in the first place, forgetting that hindsight is 20-20, he's to be commended for leading the charge to reverse what in fact was an honest mistake.

Rolling the clock back to when my father was a boy in Delray Beach circa 1918, the jewfish were just as thick on the East Coast and I have video tape of old timers describing them tucked around the nearshore wrecks within swimming distance of the beach. I'm now age 54, started commercial diving in 1975 and NEVER saw anything like that in the Delray area. I was diving commercially two years before I saw the first one. What was also abundantly clear from the conversations I had was that in those early days there was no shortage of grouper, snapper or anything else EXCEPT people.

So now we FINALLY are seeing jewfish on the East Coast again. Dad would have been pleased. What I do know is that the numbers we see today in the areas described by my father and others are far lower than what they witnessed. What I also know is that the numbers in this area have leveled off at best and may have declined slightly. It's common knowledge that many jewfish are poached weekly or lost to being pulled up accidentally from deeper water. It suggests, as Don has commented, that the "optimum yield" has already been reached, unintentionally or not which leaves no room for a sanctioned harvest .... at least not yet.

I just returned from hosting a U. of Miami, RSMAS coral research expedition to Dry Tortugas. One of the things I noticed was a healthy population of jewfish living under the Fort Jefferson dock. Mixed with them were many large mangrove snapper. Fishing at the Fort is limited to recreational hook and line and the Florida recreational bag limit and I watched as a guy was sitting there catching snapper. It was obvious that the jewfish were not depleting them. It's also obvious that the combination of strict fishing regulations and the fact that not so many people fish there has lead to a healthy population of reef species. I couldn't say the same for Tortugas Bank, some ten miles west of Fort where open fishing is allowed. I had hunted outside the closed areas in the Tortugas area many years ago and found diving there today depressing, fishwise.

Finally, I keep hearing people bitching that the jewfish keep stealing fish off of their lines when they fish the wrecks. It's true, they do. Why? Because anyone can, and does take their GPS and go there over and over again. If you've ever owned an aquarium you know that your fish will quickly learn to run up to the glass expecting to be fed. The repetition leads to altered behavior and the same is true on the wrecks. Now people want to kill the jewfish because "they are an inconvenience". The problem is the GPS which has allowed the general public to modify the behavior of the animal, after which the animal gets the blame. Without the GPS the wrecks would be rarely fished, the fish populations would be strong and the jewfish would be less likely to snag your catch, just like it was when Don first started hunting them. GPS has given us incredible navigation ability - dodging mud flats and reefs, in the middle of the night, in areas we've never even been before, instant access to wrecks and reefs that otherwise we couldn't find, the ability to tell a rescuer exactly where you are in an emergency - all incredible capabilities that didn't exist when I started diving that have made your lives so much easier and safer. With all that people bitch that jewfish on a wreck, that you found with the punch of a button, is inconveniencing you. Fishery regulators will never let the harvest of jewfish become so effective as to end this "inconvenience" because it would require beating the stock back down to nothing. Take a broader perspective about the use of your GPS, be grateful for it and accept "the good with the bad". The good is much greater and the "bad". Jewfish stealing your fish is miniscule in comparison.


In case you haven't already seen these "to the point" videos I recommend them. They're very short.

http://www.shiftingbaselines.org/videos/tiny_fish60.htm
http://www.shiftingbaselines.org/vid..._surfrider.htm
Biminibill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55 PM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com