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Old 11-05-2017, 01:28 PM   #31
rowow
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
rowow, you seem to be stuck on your PETA Association Argument.

Let's analyze what you are doing by constantly bring up PETA.

You are using a logical fallacy called Guilt by Association which is a form of argumentum ad hominem.

Argumentum ad hominem is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy if the argument attacks a source because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.

This form of the argument is as follows:

Source S makes claim C.

Group G, which is currently viewed negatively by the recipient, also makes claim C.

Therefore, source S is viewed by the recipient of the claim as associated to the group G and inherits how negatively viewed it is.

FYI, Tony
You and danvolker brought up the PETA argument agian and agian, I simply am defending myself and explaining how you misunderstood me. My original argument against PETA was its manipulation of data. Although I understand how it looks like a ad hominem and guilt by association thats far from what I am doing. I even stated that the Malinowski study has NO influence by PETA or any other environmental group.

My issue with the Malinowsky study is that 1: Its a outlier with a small sample size and 2: Compared to many other fish, Goliath groupers are pretty average.

And I am well aware of what a ad hominem is. But agian that is not my argument. My argument with PETA was to show the false information being spread by the organization which influenced the public perception. I myself believed mercury was very dangerous and Goliath groupers are very very high in mercury.

I am not comparing the Malinowsky study to PETA and even in my original messages referenced each group in separate posts. I made that difference very clear. I think you simply misunderstood me.

Last edited by rowow; 11-05-2017 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Edited #2 reason against the Malinowsky study
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:26 PM   #32
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Jim,were you able to download the actual paper you linked above? All I could get was the abstract as follows below. The reason I ask is to see the maximum and minimum data for each individual instead of just the mean numbers. Do you agree more data on goliath mercury levels needs to be collected and published subject to peer review? Tony
No I didn't really try to download the whole paper. I have to admit it is strange to read the abstract and discover in 20 seconds that it differs from the presentation data. I have the author;s phone number, if you want you can probably give him a call and discuss.

Since Chris et. al. are getting data which is 3 or 4 times higher than published for the GG samples... then that definitely seems important. I'm sure they will publish it - along with an estimate on the safe size to eat of course.

I would expect that since their data is far, far different from published data that they are running some split samples and sending them to people like Tremain, so that there is no question about the validity of their protocols and results.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:50 PM   #33
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

http://oceana.org/sites/default/file...eportFINAL.pdf
"Highest mercury levels in individual samples were from
the two king mackerel (3.97 and 3.56 ppm), followed by a
cobia (ling) (3.24 ppm). These were the only samples over
3 ppm mercury. "

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=utaf20
Mercury in individual fish ranged from 0.01 to 3.3 mg/kg. Approximately 23% of all grouper samples analyzed contained mercury at concentrations that exceeded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's methylmercury consumption guidance criterion for humans (0.3 mg/kg).

Found some better studies which show various other fish species with mercury levels around 4ppm. Cobia and king mackerel were found with levels close to 4ppm. So if you want to avoid eating Goliath groupers due to that small chance, then you should also avoid these, and basically any top predator/pelagic species. However Cobia is a highly targeted species by spearos and I haven't meet anyone with minamata disease thus far from eating 1 cobia or mackerel...
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:56 PM   #34
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Rowow, you forgot to answer this question in my post 24.

Quote:
Can you tell the difference between a male and female goliath you would catch under any allowed take and want to eat?
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:14 PM   #35
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Rowow, you forgot to answer this question in my post 24.
No I cannot sex a Goliath grouper and I dont see how it makes a difference?

Can you tell the difference between a high mercury vs low mercury cobia/mackeral/tuna? I thought the premise of your argument was low vs high levels of mercury. Not the average mercury levels of a fish.

Yes the average of a male is much higher, however there are still some females with high levels of mercury. Your argument is based off that one in a hundredth possibility of getting a high mercury fish.

However regardless of whatever you look at (mean, low/high) at the end of the day various other fish have similar levels of mercury as goliath grouper yet are a highly targeted fish. So can you answer my questions.

1. Are you now going to stop eating any species of fish which as any chance of having a 3ppm or greater mercury level? If not then whats the difference between Goliath groupers and these other species of fish?

2. Can you provide any health effects to a grown adult male from eating a couple serving of a fish that has 3ppm or higher mercury levels?
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:50 AM   #36
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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What is this safe size? The unpublished data can provide an estimate. Providing this estimate seems like the responsible thing to do. If we know a government agency is considering the harvest of this species (and we can assume it will be used for human consumption) ... then why haven't the researchers provides their best estimate on the safe size to eat/harvest in the presentation?
Some answers to your questions are calculable in the attachment in my post #24 above. I have snipped the relevant pages below.

Do the math yourself. I come up with about 1/3 pound per month based on the mean mercury level. Using Max mercury level is smaller. What is your calculation result?




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Old 11-11-2017, 11:26 AM   #37
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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No I didn't really try to download the whole paper. I have to admit it is strange to read the abstract and discover in 20 seconds that it differs from the presentation data. I have the author;s phone number, if you want you can probably give him a call and discuss.

Since Chris et. al. are getting data which is 3 or 4 times higher than published for the GG samples... then that definitely seems important. I'm sure they will publish it - along with an estimate on the safe size to eat of course.

I would expect that since their data is far, far different from published data that they are running some split samples and sending them to people like Tremain, so that there is no question about the validity of their protocols and results.
Jim, since you may have a "question about the validity of their protocols and results" for the FSU Marine Lab work, I directly asked scientist Doug Adams for his 2013 paper on mercury in Goliath Groupers which he gladly sent me.

See the attached paper below and note the composition of his sample quoted below. Note that the mean age is only 4.42 years old in Doug's study which could be one possible reason for lower a mean mercury level in that the high presence of juveniles might have skewed the mean mercury level lower than the FSU results. Also, the areas where these animals resided and died may have less mercury in the environment than the areas sampled by the FSU Marine Lab.

What do you think of these possible explanations?

Tony


Quote:
A total of 56 goliath groupers were used in the study. Total length (TL) ranged from 112mm to 2180mm (mean ¼ 961.5mm). Of the 42 fish for which sagittal otoliths were available, age ranged from 0 (or young-of-the-year) to 23 years, with a mean of 4.42 years. Of the goliath groupers, 18 moribund or dead specimens were collected near the entrance of Tampa Bay near the Sunshine Skyway Bridge (approximately 27136.160’ N –82139.010’ W) during a prolonged, unusually cold period in January 2010. The relatively large number of goliath grouper collected at this site during this time period under the same ambient conditions allowed for comprehensive assessment of histopathology. These goliath grouper collected during this cold-kill (8 males, 10 females) ranged from 644 to 1650mm TL (mean ¼ 950.6 mm); age ranged from 4 to 11years (mean ¼ 5 years). Two additional females (930 and 1920mm TL), from the Florida Atlantic coast, were examined histologically.
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:22 PM   #38
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Some answers to your questions are calculable in the attachment in my post #24 above. I have snipped the relevant pages below.

Do the math yourself. I come up with about 1/3 pound per month based on the mean mercury level. Using Max mercury level is smaller. What is your calculation result?




You do not seem to understand the question Tony. I asked what is the safe size of a GG to eat, not how many GRAMS of fish should be eaten. The chart provides linear regressions for size versus Hg conc. Extrapolation downward will provide the estimate of how small a GG must be for it to be safe to eat.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:24 PM   #39
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Jim, since you may have a "question about the validity of their protocols and results" for the FSU Marine Lab work, I directly asked scientist Doug Adams for his 2013 paper on mercury in Goliath Groupers which he gladly sent me.

See the attached paper below and note the composition of his sample quoted below. Note that the mean age is only 4.42 years old in Doug's study which could be one possible reason for lower a mean mercury level in that the high presence of juveniles might have skewed the mean mercury level lower than the FSU results. Also, the areas where these animals resided and died may have less mercury in the environment than the areas sampled by the FSU Marine Lab.

What do you think of these possible explanations?

Tony

I made a quick visual comparison of the HG tissue concentration versus Total length between the two studies and the results are not that different, ...... if you throw out the very high data points, consisting mostly of males.

Discussion of "mean Concentration" in a particular tissue type is pretty meaningless unless you specify the length of the specimen.

BTW, the published study does provide the regression necessary to estimate the safe size of GG.

Hg = -0.226+ 0.000894*TL

So, as best I can determine, any discussion of the potential health effects of GG consumption needs to include the size of the fish eaten. Size is of overwhelming importance.

The published data seem to support the idea that small GG are SAFE to eat.. more so than some other commercially harvested species of typical legal size. You agree, right? The FSU pdf presentation includes r squared values but no regression formula. Wonder why if the intent is to protect the health of fisherman?

It does raise an interesting point however, in that the currently proposed harvest which is under consideration includes a slot size and by doing so, excludes the taking of the fish with the least health risks.

I wonder if the slot size was chosen to avoid the taking of large specimens with high Hg content? Especially since the taking of very large specimens would be helpful in generating the size versus age distribution.

Last edited by jfjf; 11-11-2017 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:31 PM   #40
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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You do not seem to understand the question Tony. I asked what is the safe size of a GG to eat, not how many GRAMS of fish should be eaten. The chart provides linear regressions for size versus Hg conc. Extrapolation downward will provide the estimate of how small a GG must be for it to be safe to eat.
Sorry, I addressed the portion size only. I asked your goliath total length question back in July. Here is the answer I received.

"Smaller individuals with less mercury could be fished—I agree with this point and spelled it out in detail in the last section of our final report. GGs from about 2.5 ft to 4 ft (immatures) could be fished and the population could be monitored to determine allowable take using surveys already in place done by the Everglades National Park—namely their creel survey. So, these smaller GGs would have acceptable mercury levels, could be easily managed, and they taste much better that large old fish. Also fishers shouldn’t complain because that size range encompasses fish from about 10 lbs to 80 lbs."

FYI, Tony
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:40 PM   #41
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Hmmm...I see the troll has sowed discord.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:26 AM   #42
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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"Smaller individuals with less mercury could be fished—I agree with this point and spelled it out in detail in the last section of our final report. GGs from about 2.5 ft to 4 ft (immatures) could be fished and the population could be monitored to determine allowable take using surveys already in place done by the Everglades National Park—namely their creel survey. So, these smaller GGs would have acceptable mercury levels, could be easily managed, and they taste much better that large old fish. Also fishers shouldn’t complain because that size range encompasses fish from about 10 lbs to 80 lbs."

FYI, Tony
Jim, to help you understand better one of the core flaws in the FWC Proposed Take, here are a few of my slides from a recent presentation. First, here is the proposed FWC Harvest slot size of 47" to 67".




Next, this is the smallest goliath I laser measured offshore of Jupiter last year which was 4 feet 6 inches. Smaller animals are very hard to find offshore around Florida, especially in the Palm Beach County area where you fish.



Lastly, this slide summarizes the total length recommendation in Koenig's 2016 paper referenced above in my post 40.



Thus, one fundamental flaw with FWC's proposed take is the mercury safe size animals which are juveniles DO NOT reside offshore around the state of Florida. They primarily reside near the juvenile habitat off the South West Coast of Florida which is why the Everglades Creel surveys are referenced as a very good way to monitor the status of the juvenile population, especially if there are more cold-kill events like the big one in 2010. Here is an FWC slide about Life History Habitats with the slide notes below.



Above Slide Notes

Quote:
Like many marine fishes, the life history of goliath grouper is linked intimately with both inshore and offshore habitats. They aggregate to spawn offshore-spawning occurs at defined sites in the late summer months (July - Sept). Larvae spend several weeks as plankton and settle out within shallow inshore nursery habitat. This species is dependent upon suitable estuaries that act as nurseries and it is believed that mangroves may provide critical habitat for juvenile growth and development. Juvenile emigration to offshore waters occurs at the age of 5 or 6 years, probably at the onset of maturity that likely occurs when they approach 1,000 mm TL.

To tie all this back to your basic question about safe size of goliath total length for human consumption, I believe the following FWC slide supports the case that goliaths below the TL size of 4 feet are the ones safe for human consumption.



Above Slide Notes

Quote:
The life history patterns of goliath grouper may make this species especially prone to exposure to contaminants and may exacerbate bioaccumulation of toxic substances, including mercury, which has documented detrimental health effects. Mercury concentrations observed in goliath grouper from Florida waters were within the range known to cause direct health effects. Mercury concentrations were particularly high in larger goliath grouper (fish greater than 4 feet).
Jim, I hope this approach to a future "Goliath Harvest targeting juveniles only" makes sense to you. Of course, such a harvest should only be done when the population has recovered. That gets us into the 2016 Goliath Grouper Stock Assessment about which I am currently awaiting answers from FWRI to a series of questions and comments I have recently submitted to those FWC scientists.

Cheers, Tony
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Last edited by SpearMax; 11-12-2017 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 11-12-2017, 10:57 AM   #43
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

....


Jim, I hope this approach to a future Goliath Harvest targeting juveniles only makes sense to you. Of course, such a harvest should only be done when the population has recovered. That gets us into the 2016 Goliath Grouper Stock Assessment about which I am currently awaiting answers from FWRI to a series of questions and comments I have recently submitted to those FWC scientists.

Cheers, Tony[/size][/quote]


Thanks for looking up and providing the regression line I referenced - as well as a reiteration of the proposed FWC slot size.

I had no idea that Koenig had prepared an alternative, much smaller slot size.

Why would you say you hope only I would think a juvenile harvest might work? Isn't that EXACTLY what Koenig is presenting in that slide? I'm really confused?

If we step back and look at it objectively, the presentation you provided from FSU makes an attempt to show that eating GG is unsafe.

However, it seems that there is a general consensus that smaller GG are safe to eat from a mercury content perspective. I didn't see that point being emphasized in the FSU presentation which was based on the unpublished data.

If the FWC is intent on promoting recreational fishing, a sustainable harvest and not promoting the introduction of meat into the food supply that is "too" high in mercury content, then it may make sense to allow the harvest of the smaller fish - regardless of what habitat they reside in.

I too see very few small GG on the reefs locally, however I have taken small ones on the reef a long time ago and I remember seeing one when diving off your boat in 80 feet - several years ago.

Do you oppose Dr. Koenig's idea of a much smaller slot size?
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:38 PM   #44
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Talking Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Why would you say you hope only I would think a juvenile harvest might work? Isn't that EXACTLY what Koenig is presenting in that slide? I'm really confused?
Is this mercury consumption driven confusion?

I added the following quotation marks to clarify the word only modifies the prior words as follows:

I hope this approach to a future "Goliath Harvest targeting juveniles only" makes sense to you.


.

Last edited by SpearMax; 11-12-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:16 PM   #45
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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....
I had no idea that Koenig had prepared an alternative, much smaller slot size.

If the FWC is intent on promoting recreational fishing, a sustainable harvest and not promoting the introduction of meat into the food supply that is "too" high in mercury content, then it may make sense to allow the harvest of the smaller fish - regardless of what habitat they reside in.

I too see very few small GG on the reefs locally, however I have taken small ones on the reef a long time ago and I remember seeing one when diving off your boat in 80 feet - several years ago.

Do you oppose Dr. Koenig's idea of a much smaller slot size?
I have attached Koenig's 2016 paper Conclusion Pages so you can see yourself what he recommended which has to do with a particular habitat. I believe it was FWC who came along and created the alternative slot size, not the other way around as you suggest. Please read the attached 10 pages.

Jim, you seem to be operating in a mercury driven vacuum looking at the trees instead of the forest. I do not oppose Koenig's idea of a much smaller slot size which is safer for the mercury issue.

But, you appear to be overlooking another major flaw in the FWC Take proposal which is the implication they assert in the notes to the slide below presented to the Commissioners at the Crystal River Meeting I attended earlier this year that "the stock could be already recovered (although results are highly uncertain)."

This slide was used over and over again in the many Goliath Grouper Workshops around the State of Florida presumably to imply to the attending public:

"the stock could be already recovered (although results are highly uncertain)."

Jim, do you believe the stock is recovered?




Above Slide Notes

Quote:
This graph shows the spawning stock biomass ratio (annual biomass relative to biomass at 50% spawning potential ratio) of goliath grouper for the period 1950-2025 as estimated by the stock assessment model (values beyond 2014 represent model projections). Results indicate that goliath grouper abundance has greatly increased since the fishery was closed in 1990 and suggest the stock could be already recovered (although results are highly uncertain).
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