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Old 05-05-2012, 12:08 AM   #31
fljgilner
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

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Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
Actually, just because you haven't seen them does not mean they don't exist.. they spend the first 4-6 years of their life in the intercoastal and shallow waters.

GG are slow moving opportunist.. If a "dumb" gag or snapper swims in front of them, they will eat it, but they do not chase those fish around a site.. To think that the GG control the population and we as hunter don't is naive at best..

Seems like the gag population was fine when the GG population was healthy, so how is that possible.. I hear stories that in the '40's they used to catch BIG red snapper in Palm Beach and at the same time, they would catch huge GG..

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?.. Easy, the GG are opportunist just like sharks and will eat the weak and easy prey, not the best and fatest… Pictures and videos do not tell the whole story!!!
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:50 AM   #32
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

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No but I'm pulling for adopt me and make me General over all Jewfish so I may lead them on their climb to world domination.
Kenny, that post has already made my day, we have to have a little levity in our lives to help us through the day.
I don't want to start a big argument on here but do want to share my 40 years of diving the east coast of florida with other viewers. First, in good conscience, I don't think the goliath grouper should be opened to any kind of harvest in the next several years. I don't see them as any kind of threat to other fish populations. Just yesterday, I saw about 4 large goliaths hanging out on a ledge with about 4 black groupers and I did not see them trying to attack any of the blacks nor did they attempt to attack me but rather gave way as I moved down the reef.
For many recent years, goliaths were practically extinct on east coast reefs and now they are just making a noticeable comeback. In the foreseeable future, they must remain a protected species. Only my opinion.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:17 PM   #33
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Kenny:

Now you have me worried about even dangling my feet in the water off the dive platform.

Next time we make it out in the gulf can you give me some warning before dropping me in on a wreck loaded with these ferocious jewfish--I could have been eaten a live and it would have been all your fault!

Don
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Old 05-05-2012, 03:59 PM   #34
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Here is a humorous true story that I think some you all will enjoy.

Years ago, in the early 1970's, when I was collecting tropical fish and spearfishing off the Palm Beach/Jupiter Inlet area a freind of mine told me a story about a diver that had just completed his dive course and was getting ready for his check out dive through a local dive shop in Riviera Beach (Frank's Dive Shop).

The owner of the dive shop (Frank) would take students out for their check out dive on his spearfishing trips. Frank made the first drift dive as the student was getting suited up to go down. When Frank surfaced he had about a 150 pound jewfish, which they dragged up on the deck of the boat. The student took one look at the fish, removed his tank, wetsuit, etc. and said "If theire are fish down there that big, I have no interest in learning how to dive." All the student had to do is make one easy check out dive and he would have been certified, but the sight of such a big animal just terrified him--he wanted no part of it.

Some folks are just plain scared of large animals, on land or in the water, and I think that may be part of the problem with this jewfish issue. Don
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Old 05-05-2012, 04:38 PM   #35
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Don I think you might be getting somewhere I like seeing these beast, it's funny watching two hundred pounders trying to hide from me under a piece of steel he clearly can't fit under then bolt. I dive on the west coast so I never have seen tons of GG on one reef or wreck and I haven't had any try to steal my fish either. My observation on this coast is where there are GG on a reef the other grouper move, leaving the hogs and snapper to eaten by GG. For the older divers when you were young how was the two species back then? Was it the same as now or Are humans truly responsible not GG.
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:28 PM   #36
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Spearhunter:
I guess at 60 yrs. old I probably qualify as one of the older divers. Years ago, during "the good old days" of the 1960's and early 1970's when there were many more, and much larger grouper and snapper on our reefs and wrecks there were also many more goliath grouper. How could this be possible if snapper and grouper were a significant part of the diet of goliath grouper?

Some folks equate size with diet and think just because a fish is large with a big mouth that it eats larger prey. Look at our whale shark, which is our largest "fish." It certainly has a large mouth, yet feeds on very small fish and plankton.

Goliath grouper are also cold blooded, like an alligator or a snake, and do not need to eat to maintain a body temperature. So, like an alligator or snake, they just do not eat that much for their body size, compared to a mammal. Don
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:28 PM   #37
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

I'm not sure i would say GG do not eat big fish !! i have personally witnessed more than a few out here in the gulf eat 15# gags off the end of my shaft. Shot about a 30# AJ on the crane last fall took a pretty long shot, stoned it and before i could grab it a GG in the 300# range ate it i fought him for a few secs just to get what was left of my shaft back. I know every one has their opinions and im not saying they should be opened or closed thats not my job, But we all know what these things do and there is no beating around the bush about their eating habits. Like i said i don't care if their open to harvest or not and it would probably just end up a bunch of guys baiting them in with a gag and hitting them with a powerhead to put a trophy on the boat, whatever works i guess but i cant see the sport in killing a fish that's probably full of worms and low on food value. Just my take on the subject
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:12 AM   #38
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

[quote=SUBH2OHNTR;1648045]I'm not sure i would say GG do not eat big fish !!

OK, I should of explained that a little better. How about large fish, such as snapper, grouper, AJ's, barracudas, etc. are not part of a goliath grouper's "normal diet." But, they are opportunistic feeders and if there is a wounded fish (on a shaft or line) they often do take those.

I had one take about a 4 foot cuda from me once. There is no way it could possibly swallow it, but it swam around for as long as I was in the water with about a foot of its tail sticking out of its mouth. Yes, they will take wounded fish--even big ones.

There is an old story of a fisherman in Key West that fished for goliath grouper off Mallory Square using stray house cats for bait, and he did catch goliath grouper. I think we would all agree that house cats are not part of the "normal diet" of goliath grouper, but apparently they will eat them under certain conditions. This might actually be a good use for stray cats!

So the question is not what are they capable of eating, but what do goliath grouper eat under normal conditions.

Don
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:04 AM   #39
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

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Originally Posted by Summerland Key View Post
....Some folks are just plain scared of large animals, on land or in the water, and I think that may be part of the problem with this jewfish issue. Don
I think the problem is that as divers and fisherman we see GG eat tons of large fish taken from us all the time. Maybe it is not their normal diet, but it still represents a huge "inconvenience" (to say the least) to fisherman. A fisherman may spend 1-2 hours on a wreck in a month's time, but if the jewfish take all his hooked fish in that time, it may not matter much to the fisherman that the GG are eating other fish when he is not there.

I've lost more fish and spears to jewfish than to sharks by a large margin when freediving. Each time it happens, it represents a loss of $35-$45 (or more) plus the fish itself.

I think that this constant "fish stealing" may be associated with a "dislike" for the aggregation of GG, more so than "being scared of a large animal".

Why not talk about isotopic trophic analysis rather than anecdotal observations of predator/prey abundances with respect to GG and other fish? The current discussion is pretty silly.

We see hundreds of barracuda in close proximity to thousands of small prey fish, yet we know that the cuda ARE eating those fish and the prey fish are often still present in abundance.

Similarly, if in the past, there was an abudance of GG and other grouper/snapper on the same reef, it does not provide evidence that the smaller grouper and snapper were not commonly preyed upon by the GG.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:23 PM   #40
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

I am amazed at the number of divers giving testimony on the poor ol’ Jewfish. All seem to be experts on their evaluations. Take it from an 84 (85 in August) yr. old diver of 65 years, who enjoyed many dives on the B U Ti Ful Key’s Reefs. All I ever saw was enormous schools of snapper and grouper. What a sight!
Bet it’s not that way now.
In Tampa Bay, all we saw was Jewfish. A scene all too familiar on today’s reefs and wrecks.
On one of our earlier trips we spent some time in Key West. It seemed most of the eateries were serving Jewfish filet’s, fingers, sandwiches that were enjoyed by all. Wow, wait till we get back to Tampa, we can make some x-tra weekend money off those big buggers when the restaurants’ see how good those filets are. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. My mother-in-law was totally hooked on it. When I would bring her a grouper filet she would say- “Get that outa here—Bring me some Jewfish.
And for someone to say those Giants don’t eat every sleeping fish they can find---Do you think they got that big eating peanuts. Duuuuuh!
Wise up, Guys & Gals, thin the heard.

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Old 05-06-2012, 01:22 PM   #41
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Ray, old buddy, I love ya but I do have to disagree with your thinking about the schools of snapper and grouper that you saw when you were down there. During your thought process, did you consider the differences between then and now regarding the numbers of fishermen, above and below water, travelling to the Keys in their large boats, outfitted with the latest array of sophisticated electronic technology and also outfitted with high tech top water and below water fishing gear?
I lived on Summerland Key for 7 years and personally saw fish population declines because of the tremendous increase in pressure. I also visited the Keys from 1975 a couple times a year until I built in 1994, so I think I have a pretty good handle of that issue.
In summary, it is obvious to me that it is almost totally a people problem. Regards, Len.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:55 AM   #42
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Len, with all respect to you as a good person and a diver, I will agree with you that it is a people problem. PEOPLE are not allowed to take the totally carnivorus and edible Goliath Jewfish. Limited, of course, as other species.

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Old 05-07-2012, 11:14 AM   #43
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

I do agree with you Jim.. To assume that just because there are tons of other fish on the reef, swimming around, not being eaten, it does not mean that GG do not eat them at some point.

But, if that is the case, then the inverse must also be true.. Just because there is a lack of life on a ledge or wreck, other than GG, it does NOT mean that the GG ate them.. Correct?

You are highly qualified to understand statistics and fish life and populations in our waters. Not only do you have an education in this field, but you have spent many hours in the water..

I have spent MANY hours in the water around these fish and Have NEVER seen them eat in person, except at the end of a spear shaft.

From my experience, some of what Ray is saying is based on his OPINION and not in science or reason. I have heard that GG desimate the lobster population because years ago in the keys, you would cut one open and find nothing but lobster. Makes sense, but does not take other factors into account.

If that is true, then the GG would have to be continuously nomadic creatures. I have seen the same GG on the same rock for YEARS and nearly without failure, is always there… There is only so many lobster and so many grouper/snapper on that rock. GG do NOT travel miles for a meal.

With their size, they are very limited on how they can hunt, They cannot chase prey down like a pelagic can. They will sit in a cave entrance and wait for a dumb fish to swim by and then pounce.

They will also go out into the sand and find the SLOW MOVING crustaceans that are easy to catch.. This is their normal routine.. To believe that these fish are even close to the threat that divers are is simply ignorant and misleading..

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
I think the problem is that as divers and fisherman we see GG eat tons of large fish taken from us all the time. Maybe it is not their normal diet, but it still represents a huge "inconvenience" (to say the least) to fisherman. A fisherman may spend 1-2 hours on a wreck in a month's time, but if the jewfish take all his hooked fish in that time, it may not matter much to the fisherman that the GG are eating other fish when he is not there.

I've lost more fish and spears to jewfish than to sharks by a large margin when freediving. Each time it happens, it represents a loss of $35-$45 (or more) plus the fish itself.

I think that this constant "fish stealing" may be associated with a "dislike" for the aggregation of GG, more so than "being scared of a large animal".

Why not talk about isotopic trophic analysis rather than anecdotal observations of predator/prey abundances with respect to GG and other fish? The current discussion is pretty silly.

We see hundreds of barracuda in close proximity to thousands of small prey fish, yet we know that the cuda ARE eating those fish and the prey fish are often still present in abundance.

Similarly, if in the past, there was an abudance of GG and other grouper/snapper on the same reef, it does not provide evidence that the smaller grouper and snapper were not commonly preyed upon by the GG.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #44
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

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Originally Posted by Ray Odor View Post
... Take it from an 84 (85 in August) yr. old diver of 65 years, who enjoyed many dives on the B U Ti Ful Key’s Reefs. All I ever saw was enormous schools of snapper and grouper. What a sight!
Bet it’s not that way now...........In Tampa Bay, all we saw was Jewfish. "
1950 there were about 2.8 millon people living in Florida, by 2010, there were about 18.8 million people living in Florida.

Are you sure it's the Goliath that are eating all the local seafood?
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:37 PM   #45
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

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Originally Posted by Shaft'o'death View Post
I do agree with you Jim.. To assume that just because there are tons of other fish on the reef, swimming around, not being eaten, it does not mean that GG do not eat them at some point.

But, if that is the case, then the inverse must also be true.. Just because there is a lack of life on a ledge or wreck, other than GG, it does NOT mean that the GG ate them.. Correct?

You are highly qualified to understand statistics and fish life and populations in our waters. Not only do you have an education in this field, but you have spent many hours in the water..

I have spent MANY hours in the water around these fish and Have NEVER seen them eat in person, except at the end of a spear shaft.

From my experience, some of what Ray is saying is based on his OPINION and not in science or reason. I have heard that GG desimate the lobster population because years ago in the keys, you would cut one open and find nothing but lobster. Makes sense, but does not take other factors into account.

If that is true, then the GG would have to be continuously nomadic creatures. I have seen the same GG on the same rock for YEARS and nearly without failure, is always there… There is only so many lobster and so many grouper/snapper on that rock. GG do NOT travel miles for a meal.

With their size, they are very limited on how they can hunt, They cannot chase prey down like a pelagic can. They will sit in a cave entrance and wait for a dumb fish to swim by and then pounce.

They will also go out into the sand and find the SLOW MOVING crustaceans that are easy to catch.. This is their normal routine.. To believe that these fish are even close to the threat that divers are is simply ignorant and misleading..
Doug, very well said.
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