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Old 04-26-2012, 08:56 AM   #1
Ray Odor
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Goliath Jewfish Redux

I recently was asked for my take on the Goliath Jewfish by a UM graduate student for a thesis he was writing. I quite willingly gave him my thoughts. Today I received his “Final Product” in which he included all his findings. Of course, it included many assumptions that “they don’t eat fish”. Following is my reply.

Please don't make this the "Final Product"
Do yourself and the fishing public a favor. Search for and view the TV presentation of "Scuba Nation", filmed off the East coast of Florida. You will see at least 100 Goliath Grouper around the wrecks and rock structures, and, where Grouper and Snapper used to pack the areas, tell me if you spot even one Gag Grouper in the places where Goliath
Predators proliferate. Remember, Goliath have a round tail and Grouper have a straight one.
Any farmer is allowed to shoot predator animals to protect their crops, limited Gator hunting tags are given to protect human and animal life, why aren't we allowed to thin the crop of carnivorous Goliath Grouper to protect our crops. Of course not, we will just make longer closed seasons on our sports fish for the fishermen and tourists.
Maybe they are just protecting the Goliaths food chain. Duuuuh!
Let me know, Ray
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:23 AM   #2
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Well said, Ray.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:29 AM   #3
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Apparently he doesn't know rule #1 of how fish determine what to eat.

If they can fit it in their mouth, they can and will eat it.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:29 AM   #4
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megabeast View Post
Apparently he doesn't know rule #1 of how fish determine what to eat.

If they can fit it in their mouth, they can and will eat it.
Even when they can't quite get it in their mouth

Last edited by jfjf; 04-26-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: one nut removed from this thread
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:58 PM   #5
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

I really like you Ray, seriously, even though we often don't agree. In this case I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should thin the herd of the primary predators that target grouper and snapper. That would mean a strict limit on who's licensed to hook and line, trap or spear these animals. You do that and the grouper and snapper populations will rebound. You kill off the goliaths and the snapper and grouper will still be few and far between because the real culprits in the depletion of these stocks on the wrecks have two legs and, oh yeah, a GPS. Take that little cheater tool away and you'd be surprised how many grouper and snapper would re-appear on these target sites. It's no surprise that the grouper and snapper are absent when the primary predator now has the tools to shoot fish in a barrel. I notice that there seem to be lots of redfish, snook, tarpon and such. Why haven't the goliaths cleaned them out? I guess the real reason they're still here couldn't possibly be the near draconian regulations that were put in place to keep the two legged predators from depleting them. Quit pussyfooting around with marginal regs and instead make rules that are truly effective and your grouper and snapper will be there to greet you on every dive.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:11 PM   #6
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Last edited by jfjf; Today at 05:47 PM. Reason: one nut removed from this thread

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Old 04-27-2012, 09:52 AM   #7
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
I really like you Ray, seriously, even though we often don't agree. In this case I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should thin the herd of the primary predators that target grouper and snapper. That would mean a strict limit on who's licensed to hook and line, trap or spear these animals. You do that and the grouper and snapper populations will rebound. You kill off the goliaths and the snapper and grouper will still be few and far between because the real culprits in the depletion of these stocks on the wrecks have two legs and, oh yeah, a GPS. Take that little cheater tool away and you'd be surprised how many grouper and snapper would re-appear on these target sites. It's no surprise that the grouper and snapper are absent when the primary predator now has the tools to shoot fish in a barrel. I notice that there seem to be lots of redfish, snook, tarpon and such. Why haven't the goliaths cleaned them out? I guess the real reason they're still here couldn't possibly be the near draconian regulations that were put in place to keep the two legged predators from depleting them. Quit pussyfooting around with marginal regs and instead make rules that are truly effective and your grouper and snapper will be there to greet you on every dive.
Bill, while I agree with you on several points here, I feel that appropriate measures HAVE been put in place to end overfishing from the human end of things. While excessive in some cases I feel we are on the right track to provide a sustainable fishery to all user groups. Where do Jewfish come into play in this..... They don't, and it is political suicide for spearfishermen to even get on that bandwaggon regardless of if the population could withstand a limited harvest.... Which to some small extent I think they could. In either case we need to stay out of the jewfish arena and let the H&L boys work that out.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:47 PM   #8
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biminibill View Post
I really like you Ray, seriously, even though we often don't agree. In this case I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should thin the herd of the primary predators that target grouper and snapper. That would mean a strict limit on who's licensed to hook and line, trap or spear these animals. You do that and the grouper and snapper populations will rebound. You kill off the goliaths and the snapper and grouper will still be few and far between because the real culprits in the depletion of these stocks on the wrecks have two legs and, oh yeah, a GPS. Take that little cheater tool away and you'd be surprised how many grouper and snapper would re-appear on these target sites. It's no surprise that the grouper and snapper are absent when the primary predator now has the tools to shoot fish in a barrel. I notice that there seem to be lots of redfish, snook, tarpon and such. Why haven't the goliaths cleaned them out? I guess the real reason they're still here couldn't possibly be the near draconian regulations that were put in place to keep the two legged predators from depleting them. Quit pussyfooting around with marginal regs and instead make rules that are truly effective and your grouper and snapper will be there to greet you on every dive.
i can see what your saying about reds and snook. idk much about tarpon. in ne florida there are really not to many reds or snook caught in federal waters or even in deep water, at least none that i have heard. I know gg like or prefer deeper water and have never seen or heard of a gg in the icw or the st johns river. so maybe gg dont know or rarely see reds or snook? i have seen a huge school of reds probably 40+ on a dive before in 100 of water on broken bottom/ledge. i also did see one on a structure, never seen a gg on that structure yet.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:34 AM   #9
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Well said indeed.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:51 PM   #10
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Geoffrey:

I read over your paper and it looked fine to me. It is difficult to get everyone's thoughts perfect on paper, but I think you captured the jest of it.

It is refreshing to see young folks, like yourself, taking an interest in these issues and compiling data in an unbaised manner.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:14 PM   #11
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

I have removed my attachment at the request of one of my interviewees. Thanks for the interest.

-Geoffrey

Last edited by GShideler; 04-30-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:58 AM   #12
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Evidentaly, Don and Moose, you did not view the ScubaNation presentation of the wrecks and structure on the east coast. Any location shown did not have 5 or 6 Goliaths. More like 40 or 50.

I really enjoyed the flick and will be watching this Sunday when thier next one comes on at 5:30 on the Sun Sports network. It's Chanel 31 on my Bright House.

Hope you also enjoyed Geoffries write up, I did.
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Old 04-28-2012, 04:03 PM   #13
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Ray:

The wrecks you are referring to on the east coast, with 40-50 jewfish, are all well know sites and much closer to shore than the one Moose and I dived in the Gulf. Those sites on the east coast were most likely filmed during the spawing season (August-Sept) when the jewfish aggregate on these sites. Being closer to shore, and well known, means they get hit harder by fishermen from all sectors (divers and hook and line). Even at other times of the year there really are not many legal size grouper or snapper on these sites.

The wreck I dived with Moose was about 40 miles out in the Gulf and not well known--few others fish or dive this site.

The Gulf is much different from the Atlantic. Not only is it managed differently, but it is blessed with enormous sea grass beds in the northern gulf that act as a nursery area for juvenile gags. Also, there are two very effective and well placed shelf edge reserves where gags, red snapper and other species can spawn unmolested by anyone. The Atlantic really does not have anyting that compares to the situation you have in the Gulf--as a result we are paying a heavy price with restrictions.

On another note--do you still make those trigger mechanisms that everyone talks about? I need to replace one in a gun I made and want to do it with a good one. I hear yours are some of the best. Don
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Old 04-28-2012, 07:01 PM   #14
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Don and the Moose. Dang, Guy's, I'll make you both a trigger if you can (or will)
pull up www.ScubaNation.com and if you can view thier first release of the armys of Jewfish on those wrecks and the "hole" in 125ft of water and point out a single grouper. And please, guys, you're sounding more like the Bunny Huggers every day.
You may want to watch the show at 5:30PM Sunday on Sun Sports. They may even find a grouper or two. Hint--if they stay away from the wrecks.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:31 PM   #15
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Re: Goliath Jewfish Redux

Some statements leave me scratching my head: According to Dr Sarah Frias-Torres (scientist from ORCA), the goliath grouper diet consists mainly of invertebrates and poisonous fishes. Dr Chris Koenig (scientist from FSU) corroborates this statement, explaining that stable isotope analyses have proven that goliath grouper feed primarily on a lower trophic level (low on the food web). Really how then do you explain the Lion fish explosion?
They eat anything that swims.” Dennis O’Hern, Right on Dennis, Watch a fishing show targeting Jew fish what do they use for bait, not pinfish not shrimp they 10-15 pound sting rays.
’” Don DeMaria echoed this concern, stating “fishing mortality is too high, even though it’s illegal.” Really after all the comments that more data is need how can you make a statement, like this Its not illegal to fish for them only to remove them from the water Scientist Dr Frias-Torres adds that “goliath grouper cannot handle fishing pressure, there is a population bottleneck. We have cold water events, red tides, rampant poaching, and bycatch. We are already losing great numbers, it cannot handle fishing.” Dr Koenig agrees that poaching is a problem, “the fish are filleted on the boat and can be marketed as any grouper.” Wrong it is not legal to filet and skin a fish on the water.
Dr Crabtree explained that the Florida west coast goliath grouper populations are more or less “rebuilt,” but issues like poaching might be all the mortality that fish populations can sustain. If the fishery is reopened, he would want to address the issue of how to do it without the goliath grouper being rapidly fished back down. “But we are talking about a data poor situation.
There are a lot of gaps and uncertainties,” he says. Aaron Podey explained that this is because fisheries-dependent data cannot be collected for goliath grouper
One of the largest concerns is goliath grouper’s susceptibility to overexploitation. Fishermen like Captain Tom McLaughlin believe that “goliath grouper are like bears hanging by camp sites. They are not like other fish.” He claims that he could go catch 50–60 different goliath grouper in a few hours if he wanted to; and he fears that if the fishery is reopened, it will not be managed properly. He’s the man, I think I would be done in after 2 or 3 Captain Wayne Conn echoes this, “How do you possibly police it?” I wonder about the things people let out of there mouth you police it the same as all other fishers Don DeMaria worries that, if the fishery were opened, the first fish killed would be the biggest and easiest, I’m speechless to a comment like that. But many people believe that protecting the goliath grouper does more for the economy than
reopening the fishery. Captain Conn says they are a great fallback, “I own party fishing boats,
and my boats depend on migratory fish. If I get a guy to pay a lot of money, I wanna get that guy
a fish. Goliath grouper is a great fallback.”
Ultimately, more data needs to be collected on this species before serious decision-making can take place (Dr Chris Koenig Again more excuses but no effort to get the ball rolling…………kick the can down the road. There too busy, it’s a low priority, not enough data. If you’re a commercial fisherman you know by all the blue letters the NOAA people have lots of time to dream up more rules and regulation.
So much for my smart ass comments, I wonder if I’m a simpleton sometimes, you have a tag program straight out purchase a tag and be and be able to take 1 fish. Or control it by having a lottery. But by reading the comments of professors and fishery managers they have little interest in doing anything about working towards a season, they offer excuses it will take years, people might poach, and so on, and kick the can down the road.
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