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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 07-31-2017, 11:15 AM   #1
getawayFK
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double roller or inverted roller?

Hey y'all,

Looking for thoughts in either of these spearguns:

Manny sub inverted roller (130cm) vs aimrite rage double roller (130cm).

http://www.rollerspearguns.com/produ...verted-roller/

http://aimrite.com.au/shop/home/42-a...rollergun.html

This will be for an upcoming dogtooth tuna trip (to supplement by aimrite KV 150cm and rob allen 140cm). I am looking at an 8.5mm or even an 9mm (shorter) shaft on these guns.

any thoughts? both of these are in the 1k range....


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Old 07-31-2017, 12:19 PM   #2
Grizzlestomp
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Rob a gas station and buy an Alemanni! Kidding, kind of, but have no experience with any other brand of double or inverted rollers (besides the ones I built myself).
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:19 PM   #3
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Having the clean line of sight, almost zero recoil and a smaller profile muzzle for easier tracking are really nice characteristics of the inverted roller. I have shot them and they shoot beautifully. My buddy in Indo has several single, double and inverted rollers and he swears by the inverted roller design for doggies. That said, you have many more tie point that could fail. Keeping it simple if you don't have a backup gun is something to keep in mind.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:15 PM   #4
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Rick at Aimrite USA has been doing some testing with inverted rollers vs the doubles that they're already producing. Give him a call and just have a chat about what he's seen in testing and what he'd recommend for your application. For a big game/big money trip like that, I always recommend using a back up gun that is as close to your primary in aiming characteristics as possible. You don't want to blow a once in a lifetime shot because you're not familiar with how your backup gun shoots. For what it's worth, I find it very easy to be very accurate with inverted rollers, primarily due to the utter lack of recoil. Rick's number is (808) 747-0028
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:11 AM   #5
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

id go 130 inverted
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Old 08-02-2017, 05:37 PM   #6
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Inverted from expertise of others who have used reg rollers, far and beyond reg single rollers they have said, but I don't know for lengths. I am going to buy a ROISUB here shortly. Check them out. Happy hunting! Post on your outcome!


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Old 08-03-2017, 08:49 PM   #7
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manavie View Post
Inverted from expertise of others who have used reg rollers, far and beyond reg single rollers they have said, but I don't know for lengths. I am going to buy a ROISUB here shortly. Check them out. Happy hunting! Post on your outcome!


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i am contemplating on one of these newer inverted double roller (carbons) from alemanni. Any thoughts ?
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Old 08-03-2017, 10:53 PM   #8
Manavie
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

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Originally Posted by getawayFK View Post
i am contemplating on one of these newer inverted double roller (carbons) from alemanni. Any thoughts ?


I think if you've got the money to do it his guns are probably the most tuned and sophisticated due to his tuning each one in the pool before he sends them out. Call and talk to gun makers and ask about performance

I will definitely post my experience with ROISUB when I purchase one in a month.




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Old 08-06-2017, 06:15 AM   #9
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

I am convinced that a double roller simply will not give you any improvement over a classic setup. You do get more band effective band stretch ... but you also have losses as the energy is transferred through the roller ... so that negates whatever advantage you have. Also the rotational forces really destabilize the shaft ... so the more you push the more those bad forces act on the shaft. Not worth it IMHO.

Invert rollers are different ... you have a pulley that will double the contraction speed of your bands ... so theoretically they should give an advantage. The forces are also linear ... and if you control things so that the wishbone doesn't dive down (by using a linear stopper) you don't have the bad rotational forces that a normal roller has. This allows more power to be added without worrying about wishbone affecting back end of the shaft and destabilizing the shaft. This is all theory and to talk about it is one thing but to build a gun that understands all the problems and works around them is another thing. In the end it is all about getting the shaft out with the maximum stability possible. I have yet to see any invert roller out perform a well setup classic gun ... but that could change soon as there is a better understanding of how to keep the shaft stable on track exit. But ... there are still a few tricks that can be done with a classic gun that can improve performance ... so let's see how things pan out.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:12 AM   #10
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

"I am convinced that a double roller simply will not give you any improvement over a classic setup."

Some of my good friends who are definitely some of the most experienced Spearfishermen on the planet, use the Alemanni Double Roller. I would disagree with Majd's statement above. Majd is always concerned about swimming pool shooting. But in real life, my friend travels the world using one gun for everything from Striped Bass or Robalo in Low vis to big Cuberas to 200lb+ Yellowfin. That gun has some big advantages over other set ups. It's as simple as loading a two band gun using a Load assist and gives the power of a 3 band classic gun in a much smaller package. It can shoot a thick shaft. It can be used at various power settings on the fly without bands flopping around. It has no recoil. It is almost comically thin and light. Is it the end all of Bluewater guns? No.. That's not what it is designed to be. But that Alemanni Double Roller has definitely proven itself in the Field to be an awesome Fish Catcher. Ofcourse, they are expensive..
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:16 AM   #11
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Double roller has no chance vs a good classic setup in terms of power. Inverted is more powerful than double roller. Bands lose too much energy going around the roller.

Abellan has tested this. We like to use science to get our results, not pseudoscience.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:26 PM   #12
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Harold,

Honestly, I think you'd be hard pressed to show me a Classic Band gun that is 140cm total length which can shoot an 11/32" shaft loading two bands and weighs 4lbs. But those are the specs of the Alemanni Double Roller and it will kill fish at 22' from the muzzle, or targets in a pool a bit further..
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:28 PM   #13
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Dear Jon, did you notice how Majd could present his opinion without making it personal whereas you unfortunately could not? Without the belittling comment about the "pool swimming" your argument would almost have been sound. (The "my friends are better than your friends" argument is never the greatest. Put any powerful gun, heck almost any gun, in a good, well-traveled spearo's hand and they would take a big range range of fish, too).
Your points on size (handling), ease of loading, flexible setup seem legit and should have been enough.

A pity Harry jumped on the bait and was equally snide in that last remark which will probably just fuel the fire.
Here's to hoping you guys can be better than that. If not, then perhaps think of this - you two both sell guns in the same market and lately, it's just been plain ugly and childish seeing the slugging going on. It's almost a given that it will happen in any thread you both are in these days and that's just sad.
You both have proper products, both have people wanting to buy them and you are both improving on your products. Competition is healthy but I am not so sure the tone between you guys is. As of now, none of you are really winning and I actually think you both could be. You should both be ambassadors, not rolling in the mud. Right now, you are both just tainting your brands. Pity, really.

As always, this is just one man's humble opinion. Cheers, peace out and all that.

[EDIT]
I was a tad slow in writing this, so it ended up a bit further down than it should have been. Maybe the war has cooled down already;-)

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 08-06-2017 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:21 PM   #14
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

DG, are you the Sheriff or the Psychologist? I'm sorry you see it that way. Majd is talking about performance as measured in a swimming pool right? But that is not the end all measurement of performance. (Also we have all seen an Inverted Poliplast outperform a classic banded gun in Seal's swimming pool testing which is just as credible as anyone else's.) If you think I'm being snide maybe you should re-read what I wrote. Don't you find value in Field testing? Anyways. A guy comes on to ask about which type of Rollergun he should get for Dogtooth Tuna. Double or Inverted. I'm doing my best to answer his question (Which is more than you are doing.) Honestly, neither me nor harold, nor majd are experts in rollerguns. The one to answer this question is Mr. Seal. But it will always be a compromise.. do you want range, do you want complexity, do you want the smallest package? I've hunted Dogtooth Tuna for Decades and I've never take a real Long shot on a Dogtooth.. not like I've taken on yellowfin. A Dogtooth dies because it is curious and you can keep it off the reef once it's shot.
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:39 PM   #15
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Re: double roller or inverted roller?

Jon, of course, I'm neither. I made it clear this was one guy's personal opinion but sometimes there's value in hearing how one's words sound in the ears of others and that's what I offered. My personal view is still that the snide remarks from both sides can't be the best for your brands. You both have so much valuable experience and it would be great if that was what was shared. If you took offense to what I said, I may be guilty of miscommunication. It was meant as honest, though possibly tough, advice, which of course you're more than welcome to not take.
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Last edited by Diving Gecko; 08-07-2017 at 12:46 AM.
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