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Old 09-20-2006, 02:24 PM   #121
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Rich is correct about the lack of historical data on not just jewfish, but all fisheries. The history of fishing, and especially commercial fishing, is not like the history of when our West was settled. There were writers, poets and artists that went along recording much of what happened. That was not the case with fishing. There were few, if any writers, poets and artists that went along on offshore commercial fishing boats. We just overfished many species, from codfish to swordfish to sardines without much attention. Most were too busy making money today to even think recording events for future generations.
In the case of jewfish there is some anecodatal data in the form of logbooks form people like me, testimony form the old timers of what it was like in the "old days", still photos of jewfish speared off Louisiana and underwater 8mm film from the Hobe Sound/Jupiter area taken by Frank Hammit of a large herd of jewfish. This is not perfect data, but from what I have seen recently come out of the stock assessments at NMFS there is no perfect data that exists.
Will there ever be a limited harvest? If so, I seriously doubt any of the harvest will be allocated to spearfishermen. More than likely it will be a recreational hook and line slot size fishery only and you will not find me argueing for that. The hook and line rec. crowd already have many species to themselves (snook, redfish, marlin, sailfish permit, etc.). Why should they deserve another?
Are jewfish dangerous? I would place my fear of jewfish behind boat propellers, moray eels, man-o-war jellyfish, driving on I-95 in Miami during rush hour, etc. Diving is a dangerous sport and that is part of what makes it so exciting. For those that want a high excitement/low risk sport something like bungee jumping may be more their style.
There could be a huge business built around high end dive charters (especially the European crowd) just to go out to swim and photograph these fish. The jewfish will show up every year August/Sept. to aggregate and spawn on known sites. It is like clockwork and there is no where else in the world where this event is documented. Even Rich admits that it is a spectacular sight to see 100 or so on a single site. I have dived on the Californian, towers and some of the shrimpboats at night in these aggregations. It is impressive, photo of video opportunities are incredible. I have no desire to get into the dive charter business with my boat, but I know there are those that do this for a living and should be looking into this. I would be glad to help in any way possible with iinformation.
When we worked with Jean-Micheal Cousteau this past summer we dived the Californian (110 feet deep). Conditions were as good as it gets. I went down first to check the area out and let them know where the fish were. Visibility was excellent and I counted at least 50 jewfish. The first words out of Jean-Michael's mouth when he surfaced were "I have never seen so many large grouper in one place." With an endorsement like that I think it is safe to say that what we have in Southwest Florida is turly unique.
It is really nice to see this thread continue for so long in a civil tone. Thanks to everyone and especially Tony for getting things back on track. Don
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:29 PM   #122
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Steve, Kenny,
You both may very well be right concerning the increase in spearfishing.
I dont know of a reliable source to proove or disproove it.

I made a quick phone call to ask for the License info and that person said they would try to send me a spreadsheet with the figures for the last 15 years.
They said that license sales have reamained relatively unchanged the last 5 years and only moderate increases over the last 15. It has not kept up with the population figures.

I do know that many enviros have tried to say that fisherman have increased dramatically and this is why increased protection and rules must be made to sustain fish populations.The numbers dont support it though.
I know growth in certain areas is out of control but they are not all fishing for some reason.

On the other hand, I dive out of one of the largest boat ramps in the state, FT. Desoto park.
I live very close to there and ride my bike past the ramp quite frequently.
I have made the observation that the ramp used to be overfilled beyond capacity several years ago.
Now... Even on the nicest weekends, there are plenty of open spots and the overflow parking lot is completely empty.
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Old 09-20-2006, 04:43 PM   #123
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Solution to the debate

Somebody ask Ray Odor, then we'll know what the deal is.

As for Mikerotch and company, we have been seeing them on almost every site in the big bend we have dropped on this summer and all but one has been very docile. The other one ate Spearslayer's 50" to 60" cobia and he has not yet ceased to be pissed.
If they become legal to shoot, I'll volunteer to help eat one if one of you will shoot him. I will need a significant testosterone shot before I will be pulling the trigger on one.

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Old 09-20-2006, 09:03 PM   #124
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Rich,

Ask for the lobster stamp sales. Only divers have them and every spearfisher does.
Yeah, I'm sure there are a few buggers out there that don't shoot, but I can't think of one.

****************

In 2003 there were local spearfishing clubs around the SE US, and a few big tournaments, all isolated.

One spearfishing publication existed in the continental US.

Thomas Biller and I were the only FL boys at the AL Open in 2002, and then it was just me at the 2003 Hell Diver Rodeo.

Then Spearboard surged!

You are all so much more aware now, and participating in the sport across the SE US.

All the tournaments are growing and new ones are forming. It's great! But I doubt there are really that many new spearos on the scene compared to what I saw in the 80's.

I think the sport of spearfishing will eventually grow, if unmolested, but we are a small niche in the dive business, which is a very tiny industry.

The diving industry is not jacked up. New certifications are not up.

Some major companies are down by big numbers. Most others are flat. They are grabbing for their piece of the existing pie. I know some innovative dive companies are up, but I don't think any of the big ones are.

Do you see more dive charter boats? More dive shops?

Boomers are getting older and golfing on the weekends is about as physical as many get anymore. We can't look at our friends or their kids for data of new divers because we have been recruiting them endlessly.

Seen any famous scuba divers on major TV? Since Cousteau died?

In any movies? Jessica Alba was hot, but the movie flopped!

There are some new freediving heros, and that sport is growing, even with non-shooters.

I have no doubt that the GG population on the west coast is out-growing the diver population.

Ask some more dive reps. The big companies have just been buying more market share.

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Last edited by Chad Carney; 09-20-2006 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:22 PM   #125
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Carney
Rich,

Ask for the lobster stamp sales. Only divers have them and every spearfisher does.
Yeah, I'm sure there are a few buggers out there that don't shoot, but I can't think of one.

****************
Chad,
That is a good Idea. I will see If I can obtain that information.
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Old 09-21-2006, 02:47 PM   #126
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

I have been unable to open the files sent to me so far but was verbally told that bug stamps for 2002, 2003, 2004 were approximately 122k, 116k and 122k.
Will post more info when I get it.
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:32 PM   #127
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Carney
Yeah, I'm sure there are a few buggers out there that don't shoot, but I can't think of one.
There are quite a few diehard lobster divers over here who never pick up spearguns. I know this because I rag them everytime they talk about lobstering. Theres a group of guys I know who will not allow spearguns on their boats during lobstering trips. Do you honestly think that the thousands of bug fanatics going to the keys are carrying a speargun? Come on, Chad. There are literally THOUSANDS of keys bug divers who only dive those two precious days or the first week and thats it for the whole year. Most do not carry a gun.

Since we are obviously allowed to use broad assumptions here on this thread, let me throw this one out to counteract: How do you explain the incredible increase of Spearfishing Specialties speargun sales and Wong speargun sales. Wong is the only elf in the wood shop, I know, but his gun prices and demand has gone WAY up. Marketing to existing divers? Sure. Increasing number of spearfishermen/women into the sport wanting to buy his equipment? Sure. Other than a survey, you won't know for sure. Also, I will give you $10 if you can ever call Kevin when he is awake and isn't swamped in business or says that he is not busy. Ken Jones is making guns and has a wait list, also.


Quote:
Thomas Biller and I were the only FL boys at the AL Open in 2002, and then it was just me at the 2003 Hell Diver Rodeo.
That is another fact that does not substantiate this argument.

Quote:
Then Spearboard surged!

You are all so much more aware now, and participating in the sport across the SE US.

All the tournaments are growing and new ones are forming. It's great! But I doubt there are really that many new spearos on the scene compared to what I saw in the 80's.
I am open to that, I did not spearfish in the 80's. My argument is in the past 5 years spearfishing has grown.

Quote:
I think the sport of spearfishing will eventually grow, if unmolested, but we are a small niche in the dive business, which is a very tiny industry.
I agree with that.

Quote:
New certifications are not up.
Certifications being awarded by each agency, or cumulatively from all agencies, is not an accurate gauge of measure, unless all of them saw significant increases per year. Why? Because you and I know there are thousands of people who get certified, get obsessed, and dive maybe for 3 months, then quit altogether. So, knowing this behavior is constant, a flat rate of certifications would tell me that new people are joining the sport fast enough to replace the old ones. Still, we don't know how many of them spearfish. Being that spearfishing is much more marketed now, my argument is that the rate is higher. But there is no way to prove it here.

Quote:
Do you see more dive charter boats? More dive shops?
Like divers, they come and go. Its more of a territorial thing, when one shop or charter goes under, another takes its place. Besides, how can you use this statement in the argument when many divers head overseas to, say Cozumel, for a dive trip. Go to SCUBAboard and many of your mid-western divers rarely dive american waters...they are going overseas. As far as the dive shops go, how can you gauge that when places like Leisurepro and diversdirect exist? Sure, many of us support our local shops, but many also get their gear exclusively from leisurepro. Its not a hard thing to assume since their prices are always lower than a common shop. Dive shops come and go all the time. One drops out, another will take its place. Mostly territorial.

Quote:
Seen any famous scuba divers on major TV? Since Cousteau died?
Thank God, no I haven't. Cousteau pretty much pioneered the "sport" and back then it was relatively new and undiscovered. The American people were entrilled, to be like a fish and breathe underwater. Thats been out for many many years now, I think the "mystery" and adventure had lost luster with the general public.

Quote:
In any movies? Jessica Alba was hot, but the movie flopped!
Same explanation as before, really. And maybe the fact that anyone could see the trailer to that movie and tell it was foolish from the get go. Except for Alba's camel toe, which would be the only reason for a dignified male scuba diver to justify spending more than $5 to see it.

Quote:
There are some new freediving heros, and that sport is growing, even with non-shooters.
I agree, this shows the growth of spearfishing.

Last edited by inletsurf; 09-21-2006 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:55 PM   #128
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

My point is that, again, without an actual survey or (I shudder to say this) "spearfishing stamp", you'll never know the growth rate of spearfishing with confidence.
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:16 PM   #129
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Glutton Grouper is what they are.

They eat up the whole bottom, they should really limit one per person and seasonal harvest with size limits or something.

How is the table fair on these anyways?
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:22 PM   #130
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Actually, that isn't correct. They don't eat the whole bottom up. They are opportunistic in their feeding behavior but not gluttonous. Stomach content analsysis from fish caught in Florida waters has shown them to feed on invertebrates (crabs and lobsters) as well as slower moving reef fishes. Not snapper and smaller grouper. Given the relatively high abundance of snapper and grunts, you would expect these fishes to make up a large part of their diet. But that's not the case. In fact, in one study, snapper and grouper were more abundant on sites occupied by GG. They not be selective in the diet, but they are restricted in what that can eat by what they can catch.

The fact is, there is a dearth of information about this species. For that reason, we can not expect any meaningful management plan for regulatory agencies, other than "ya can't shoot 'em."
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:25 PM   #131
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Quote:
Originally Posted by BwanaR
Very possibly mistaken identity. Duhhh.....Always carry a knife!
you took the words right out of my mouth .
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:27 PM   #132
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

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Originally Posted by biggsy
Not always. I have had to beat them off of me with the butt of my gun and that still did not deter them from chasing me up in the water column to steal my grouper.
that happen to mobel diver once...
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:47 AM   #133
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Thunderball I like that "acctually". Have you "Actually" ever dove on rock piles, wrecks or ledges in the past five years? Our fish structures are covered with Goliaths and there is a distinct absence of Grouper, crabs,lobster and who knows what other species. Maybe that's why the other fish disapear, no small food left for them. Also, add this to your questionable "stomach content".
The last one I got from the Skyway Bridge had three dozen big Blue Crabs in its belly. Do you really think that's all guts in those big bellies?
I HAVE A SOLUTION!! Allow the taking of Jewfish. You must first sign a verification wavier, containing numbers to call, from the F.W.C stating that you will notify the F.W.C. on shore arrival, or shortly before, of the posession of said fish. The stomach will be cut on FWC arrival and the contents placed in a bag and small cooler with ice. This cooler will be taken by the FWC to the nearest Marine Research Facillity, after they estimate the total weight of said fish.
This is the best research idea of the century, we all need to participate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderball
Actually, that isn't correct. They don't eat the whole bottom up. They are opportunistic in their feeding behavior but not gluttonous. Stomach content analsysis from fish caught in Florida waters has shown them to feed on invertebrates (crabs and lobsters) as well as slower moving reef fishes. Not snapper and smaller grouper. Given the relatively high abundance of snapper and grunts, you would expect these fishes to make up a large part of their diet. But that's not the case. In fact, in one study, snapper and grouper were more abundant on sites occupied by GG. They not be selective in the diet, but they are restricted in what that can eat by what they can catch.

The fact is, there is a dearth of information about this species. For that reason, we can not expect any meaningful management plan for regulatory agencies, other than "ya can't shoot 'em."
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:27 PM   #134
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Sure, I make about 100 dives a year. And have been diving and spearing since 1976. All over the world. I was a marine biologist for 10 years in Virginia and New York. I have a Ph.D. But alas, I am no expert and would never claim to be. I don't want to debate your fund of knowledge or anecdotal information on spearboard. And I wouldn't ever presume to lecture anyone on this forum. However, we have very little hard data to make decisions about management of GG. Unfortunately, the anecdotal observations that expereinced divers such as yourself make, have very little value when it comes to making management decisions. Have fun and dive safely.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:13 PM   #135
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Re: Fish kills spear-fishing diver off Florida

Well if we have to get down to the details here we go. If you have a stringer in your hand and it becomes life thretening then let it go. For most species you MIGHT be able to fight them off. Hmmm I dont think I told people to just feed wild animals, but take how you read it I guess. So if you have a bull that wants to eat your stringer, just try and swim away? there is only so much you can do to defend you catch. My point is if it comes down to it let the stringer go, I guess I shouls have explained more before
-Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichTaylor
Mike,
I believe you have given suspect information and highlighted the parts of your post that I take exception with.

First...Nobody trully knows what the populations of GG grouper were in the "60's and 70's" because accurate fish counts were not conducted!
Much of the information used today to get a baseline comes from one person who frequents the forum. That kind of info should not be used even though it is "the best available science".
We also didnt have the type of open communication back then that we do today to let people compare notes and experiences.Perhaps many people thought there were too many then. How would we know??

second... I cant speak for the keys as I havent spent as much time there as I used to. I can however speak with extensive knowledge and experience about West Central florida.
GG have become very aggresive on many locations to divers who carry no fish. They will follow very closely behind divers, Posture and "bark" at divers.
I know many divers who were "scared out of the water because they percieved a large GG as a threat to their safety"
I will acknowledge that I know of no actual attacks on divers unless they had fish.

The third section of your your post that I highlighted is the most disturbing and has probably led to GG being so aggresive!
"giving" your fish to a wild animal is conditioning that animal into a certain behavior.
In other words...that animal starts to associate divers with food.
This is a very bad and potentially hazardous situation.
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