80s vintage ABBiller trigger mech question

[2859Tim]

Are newest version ABBiller trigger mechs OK for 3 5/8" bands on 62" gun ?

I'm thinking to resurrect a teak gun for CA channel islands trips (YT, WSB , ect). I bought this 62.5" (muzzle to butt) gun new from ABBiller back in 1986-88 timeframe. It has a Aussi JD priese? trigger/grip assy and looks very close to the ones listed on ABBiller site today, except that my grip has no knuckle guard. Was original as a 2 band setup and I would like to load using (qty= 3) 5/8" bands but I hear there trigger mechs on older style are not suitable for this.

I have the option to send gun to ABBiller to be refit with their later version Grip/trigger assy which they claim have hardened components and can handle (3) 5/8" bands with "no problem".

Can anyone advise if their latest version trigger mechs are suitable for extra band power. I'm thinking to start with 24" by 3/8" bands...Thanks in advance for any input..Cheers.

[Big Pig]

You will have issues if you put three 5/8 bands on that gun. Even if you put their newer trigger in the gun the trigger pull becomes very hard when powered up

[2859Tim]

Thanks for feedback...Looks like I'll just keep this as a 2 band backup. Time for a Hybrid. Looking for an excuse to buy one anyway so if anyone has a clean well setup wong magnum, PM me.

[stevemc1]

"You will have issues if you put three 5/8 bands on that gun. Even if you put their newer trigger in the gun the trigger pull becomes very hard when powered up " Maybe with older ones, but I have quite a few Billers all with the handguard. All are overloaded. None have stock bands, most are shorter, and all are 5/8 or 11/16" rubber. Triggers are very light no matter what bands are on. Ken, the 66" enclosed track gun that you saw has used 2 3/4" bands that were unbelievibly short, 22", for years before I made it enclosed track. That gun is 14 years old now. No problem with trigger pull, easy as 1 band. 4 years ago I made it an enclosed track and went to 5/8" bands, because Lynn couldnt pull back 3/4" bands all the way, and I always buy in bulk. I used 3 bands of 5/8" but longer maybe 24". I usually use 2, but sometimes I use 3. I have now switched to 11/16" rubber same length. Have not used 3 yet,usually 2, sometimes 1, but I am sure it would hold it, and trigger is still like butter. You may be thinking of Sea Hornets old trigger, which I heard from Kevin, was updated. It used to not be good with overloading.

[stevemc1]

A lot of people think Sea Hornet and Biller are the same, because Biller made Sea Hornets for a short period of time. And they look alike, but there is a difference.

[slingshaft]

Hey, can someone tell me the difference with the two makes. Is Sea Hornet inferior to Biller? Will the updated trigger assembly fit an older Sea Hornet?
Thanks.

[stevemc1]

I think a Biller trigger will fit a Sea Hornet. I dont think a Biller is inferior to a Sea Hornet or Vice Versa. They both are good. But I do know the old, prior to 2 years ago? Sea Hornet triggers would get hard to pull if over loaded, and they supposedly have fixed that. Billers can be loaded up and have no effect on trigger pull.

[stevemc1]

I dont think it was an original Biller if it said J.d. Prease. That is who first made that design. At least I havent seen a Biller with that, but I have seen very old J. D. Prease handles. They were gold instead of black. At least the one I saw was. I think Jd Prease made them, then Sea Hornet and Biller about the same time, then Biller made Sea Hornets, now they are made back in Australia. There is an offshoot of Sea Hornets called Spearfishing Specialties, and they have outstanding eqipment. Laminated one piece guns, many different configurations, etc.

[popgun pete]

T.D. Preece founded the "Sea Hornet" company in Australia, that is where the "Sea Hornet" speargun originally comes from. The company name is actually "T.D. Preece & Co. Pty Ltd."; the product line name is "Sea Hornet". The "Sea Hornet" speargun has had a number of distributors in the USA over the years. In recent decades they supplied their own timber stocks and spears, etc. while just using the "Sea Hornet" moulded parts and trigger mechanism. "AB Biller" was a distributor, then made their own improved gun with the knuckle guard handle and open muzzle. That "Biller" trigger mechanism has a hardened sear lever, as does the latest V3 version of the "Sea Hornet". The "Sea Hornet" trigger mechanisms are interchangeable except for the "Biller" as it has a different arrangement of the safety requiring a larger hole in the grip handle which accommodates the red plastic safety lever and the red plastic retention boss on the other side. On the "Sea Hornet" speargun the safety hangs out on one side, it is not fitted flush against the handle as it is on the "Biller". The "Sea Hornet" was originally designed to shoot with two 5/8" bands or a single 3/4" band.

Too much band load can twist the older sear levers making them bind on the walls of the plastic cassette. The "Sea Hornet" mechanism has thin levers around 2 mm in thickness which tends to limit them, however the mechanism does what it was designed to do and at an economic cost of production.

[2859Tim]

Guys, thanks for all the great info...Im getting more interested in setting this gun up for 3 band after new grip+mechanism. I'll take a few pics this weekend and post (If I dont end up having to hit Philippines for business). also..Pete..great info !..I have enjoyed your various gun history posts. Recently, I think you posted a discussion on addict guns. I have a stone gorgeous one I got back in the late 70s and was using it as a wetsuit hanging rack..Urf. I did not realize the hystory.

[Novice Dave]

Originally Posted by popgun pete

T.D. Preece founded the "Sea Hornet" company in Australia, that is where the "Sea Hornet" speargun originally comes from. The company name is actually "T.D. Preece & Co. Pty Ltd."; the product line name is "Sea Hornet". The "Sea Hornet" speargun has had a number of distributors in the USA over the years. In recent decades they supplied their own timber stocks and spears, etc. while just using the "Sea Hornet" moulded parts and trigger mechanism. "AB Biller" was a distributor, then made their own improved gun with the knuckle guard handle and open muzzle. That "Biller" trigger mechanism has a hardened sear lever, as does the latest V3 version of the "Sea Hornet". The "Sea Hornet" trigger mechanisms are interchangeable except for the "Biller" as it has a different arrangement of the safety requiring a larger hole in the grip handle which accommodates the red plastic safety lever and the red plastic retention boss on the other side. On the "Sea Hornet" speargun the safety hangs out on one side, it is not fitted flush against the handle as it is on the "Biller". The "Sea Hornet" was originally designed to shoot with two 5/8" bands or a single 3/4" band.

Too much band load can twist the older sear levers making them bind on the walls of the plastic cassette. The "Sea Hornet" mechanism has thin levers around 2 mm in thickness which tends to limit them, however the mechanism does what it was designed to do and at an economic cost of production.

Pete- all the above knowledge is a big help.

I've had an old JD Preece & Co./Sea Hornert/Biller lovechild for a few years now - 42", black -no knuckle guard handle, halibut and reef fish killer

I really like it as a close range/crap vis gun.

Been running with a setup of 3 stout 9/16 bands for the last few years - in close with Biller's tri cut double flopper (2.5" apiece)- the thing packs a whallop and has ruined a few fishes' day exactly what my local shop guru set it up for.

Problem is I'm pretty sure all that force tweaked the original (to me at least - I know not of it's age or original owner) sear - about every other or every 4th dive I'd bump the gun the wrong way shortly after loading - - perhaps just a bump in the surge or settling on the bottom - but BLAMMO - misfire-

So @ first we did a good job of riggin a bolt through the insert where the original safety woulda been (never had one when I took possession of said gun) and that - IMO secured the Mech suffieceintly in-place in the handle such that slight rattles would not result in misfires-

Problem solved - temporarily - ....fast forward now 12 months- some fresh rubber - and I had a few misfires the last few outtings - season's have changed and I haven't had much use for the gun in question as of late- but in the essence of preparation - and justifiable concern for safety (as you might imagine - the issues described above have resulted in me typically not loading the 3rd band and being so ginger and cautious - do to lack of trust in equipment- that dives with said bottom/hole gun have been more stressful than enjoyable) - I picked up and inserted a new Biller trigger mech (out west they don't seem to be as over the counter available - although all shop owners I speak with give nothing but for the brand)

Awesome - I should be in a good shape from what I've read regrading the Biller mech vs. what might have been originally included in the Preece/Sea Hornet handle on the gun.

My question - FINALLY - I know - MANY THANKS for getting this far - even though I've never been a safety kind of guy (although I've never porposefully removed one from a gun - and I know that such a discussion is not a good idea - here or in any public forum) - I do use the safety often on some guns - of mine - but I never make too much fuss about em cause I know where the gun's pointed and what's (and sometimes who's) around - but on this gun - .. I dunno - maybe a wee bit of extra confidence in it's relaibility wouldn't be out of order - so---- drumroll.. my question..

what do you think about me working with some of my spearo amigos/machinists to enlarge the holes - (obs. on the outside only) of the above described handle to accomodate the standard Biller safety?

Obviously we must consider the overall thickness of the handle, the thickness of the handle's walls, and the potenital for the thinned walls to crack/break. But I wouldn't expect much lateral (perpendicular to the mech's direction) force on the safety or it's pin.????

AM I way off base - could this be done? WOuld it be easier (most will probably shout "safer") just ordering a whole new handle or else a mech from Down Under??

Mebbe I need to see how the new mech stands up to the force and then start stressing about handle/safety modifications?

???

Dave

[SEATUX]

popgun pete Knows his stuff~

Look at his post #19 I think;

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php...+biller&page=2

[popgun pete]

Hi Dave. Personally I would have fitted the latest "V3" version of the Sea Hornet mechanism which has a hardened sear lever, just like the later Biller has. Your Biller gun dates from the original Sea Hornet version as Biller only put the hardened sear levers into the Sea Hornet cassettes around 1990 and then did their own complete revamp of the gun in 1999, or thereabouts. The Sea Hornet version number is stamped into the rear of the plastic sear box tube, on the rear end of the cassette. Don't use a "V2" version, readily identifiable by a skinny trigger, just in case someone still has one that they are looking to get rid of. The early Sea Hornet mechanisms don't bear a version number, you can think of them as version 1.

The installation of the Biller safety probably would not weaken the cassette by enlarging the holes provided that they were drilled cleanly, the drill bit will probably go through the plastic cassette like hot butter. However the spacing of the internal safety cam from the leading edge of the upper section of the trigger depends on the location of any holes you drill in the grip handle. Unlike the Sea Hornet the Biller safety cam is mounted on a square section shaft and that shaft takes its positioning from the red plastic cylinder (sprung loaded) on one side and the tubular inner body of the Biller safety knob on the other side. Any error in creating these holes in the grip handle which locate these red plastic parts on either side of the grip may affect the safety cam's ability to lean effectively on the trigger, so you will need to check the accuracy of your work. On the Sea Hornet the safety cam shaft is round (it is a D section on the safety knob side) and it takes its location from the round holes already in the pistol grip handle as well as the cassette which match up with each other exactly.

I consider a speargun safety as something that I apply before I cock the bands and then leave on when I am stringing the shooting line, it is no guarantee that the gun will not fire, it just makes it less likely. Once rigging finishes the safety is rotated forward to "fire" and stays that way, then you don't get careless in handling a loaded speargun underwater, you always think about where you are pointing it, just in case it does shoot (shit happens!). If the safety cam in the Sea Hornet or Biller does not revolve to the correct position for "safe" then it tells you that something is wrong and that the trigger is not in the right position to lock the mechanism. The "safe/fire" markings on the safety knob can indicate the degree of angular rotation of the safety knob (or the stubby "finger" type lug incorporated on the later model Sea Hornet guns), you just need to check, but most don't!

Wear at the smooth bearing surfaces on the top rear cutout of the trigger and the front tip of the sear lever that sits directly on top of the trigger are responsible for the trigger mechanism not locking properly, even though it may seem latched, although a good look at the angle of the trigger would tell you otherwise. It is a very simple procedure to take the mechanism out and check the levers for wear, I could probably do it in the time taken to write this post. Finding out where the wire circlip flipped to is a time waster if you lose sight of it when removing the safety knob from the shaft, otherwise it is a straight forward task which I have described here on Spearboard a number of times in the past. I now have a supply of spare circlips to replace the ones hiding in the lawn outside after I gave up trying to find them.

[Novice Dave]

thanks Pete!!

I'll do an internet search about ordering the V3.

Or perhaps I'll get a whole new biller handle to match the mech I just bought (although I don't they are sold seperately when you get a handle)

or I'll run it as is with new Biller Mech installed - PROBLEM IS (seriously ) I installed the new mech - sans safety- ok thi sshould work - but now the shaft does not want to release upon tigger pull - it requires a bit more force to "set" the shaft in the mech than withthe old (malfunctioning) mech, but not much more... Then However, as I pull on the shaft and releas the trigger - I get nothing - I mean I really have to force it out with the trigger pulled - to the point I'm afraid of damaging something....

any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

[popgun pete]

Both those trigger mechanisms will "dry fire" the shaft by pushing if forwards a small amount with no bands cocked when you pull the trigger. I just tried it again on both my Sea Hornet and Biller guns, so you have introduced a problem somewhere. The trigger mechanisms are routinely sold as replacement items by both manufacturing companies, even TUSA (as the US distributor) had them listed in their 2010 catalogue, but they have stopped selling the line for some time now. Sea Hornet in the USA seems to be in limbo, I don't know who is going to take the product line over, but then I have not looked in recent times.

The changes to the Biller and Sea Hornet mechanisms (they both raised the trigger pivot pin height in the cassettes) made the relatch slightly harder than before, it now requires a slightly firmer push with your fingers on the shaft, but there is very little in it. The leaf spring that biases the trigger and sear lever provides the motive power to "dry fire" the shaft, but I cannot see how it could be out of position in the cassette. Something must be binding somewhere as the mechanism should operate smoothly, especially when it is brand new. The sear box tube is level with the track, so the shaft should fall out when you pull the trigger with the muzzle pointed downwards. Check your clearances by slow-mo working of the relatch and watch what happens as the mechanism clicks into the locked condition.