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Diving Safety, Accidents and Incidents Post here to discuss accidents, incidents, ideas, gear, or anything else to improve spearfishing safety. Memorials and condolences threads should be placed in that separate forum.

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Old 01-02-2014, 12:56 AM   #16
sacha58
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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Freediving and scuba do not mix, but, anyway, I used to carry a pony bottle when free diving in the mediterranean sea.... on very few occasions had to use it to recover some deep grouper holding their ground in a cave, once shot on a breath hold dive, or a stuck anchor. Dives not longer than 5 min, sucking all the air at 10 feet and they were the last diving activity for the day. No way to use a pony bottle to shoot the fish...that would mean looking for trouble :-)
Re reading my post I just realized I had not been clear about carrying a pony bottle.......it was never on me, I kept it on the boat, usually a 4 Lt at 200 atm.
In case of something stuck to the bottom, I would grab it and use it to solve the issue, and that was it. Looks like similar to what jfjf did in his dive. Please correct me if I am wrong.
No Pony bottle on yourself when free diving.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:00 PM   #17
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

I have a question for guys who are strong freedivers and also tank divers. I know this would be considered horribly dangerous and totally wrong in the scuba world (ie breathe ALL THE TIME) but I am curious....

Because of Boyle's law, and because we know a freediver's lungs absorb O2 more or less normally at depth with even just a little more than residual volume in the lung provided the partial pressure of O2 is high (the case when a diver takes a full breath at the surface and drops say 3 ATMs), why couldn't a highly trained diver do a 100' drop on a breath, then periodically take tiny sips of compressed air (with a correspondingly high PPO2) at depth as opposed to full breaths? I am aware that this would put the freediver into the kind of DCS risks faced by a SCUBA diver, and unless he is breathing on the way up or exhaling there is very real risk of barotrauma, and that diver could easily be generating CO2 faster than he could flush it, etc... but theoretically that diver at 100' would only need about 1L air at each breath to get the same O2 as he gets at the surface on a full breath, correct?
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:38 PM   #18
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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Don't believe everything you read on the internet...

I made this video a while ago, because i got tired of people saying you need a huge amount of air to ascend with a pony bottle.

Ascending with 13 cu-ft Pony Bottle - YouTube
How long was your safety stop?
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:53 PM   #19
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

The ascent was filmed in real time. You can see how long it takes to ascend...
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:19 PM   #20
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

Growingupninja

If you wanted to take sips of air to extend your bottom time I think you might run into another kind of danger. Although you are getting new air you are constantly taxing your system with low 02 levels. A patch of poorly oxygenated blood could hit you and you black out. A freediver needs an adequate amount of recovery time (breathing up) to stay safe. This is why its important to keep an eye on a diver thats surfaced. They are breathing and look fine but then they get hit with LMC or Samba; poorly oxygenated blood has hit their brain.

An article I just read also stated that freedivers that did not allow an ample recovery period risked a greater chance of the bends.

If this was an emergency ascent then yes by all means, but for standard practice no.



Theoretically you do not need full breath at 100' to get enough oxygen in your lungs to sustain you. Assuming a normal rate of breathing.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:52 PM   #21
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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Growingupninja

If you wanted to take sips of air to extend your bottom time I think you might run into another kind of danger. Although you are getting new air you are constantly taxing your system with low 02 levels. A patch of poorly oxygenated blood could hit you and you black out. A freediver needs an adequate amount of recovery time (breathing up) to stay safe. This is why its important to keep an eye on a diver thats surfaced. They are breathing and look fine but then they get hit with LMC or Samba; poorly oxygenated blood has hit their brain.

An article I just read also stated that freedivers that did not allow an ample recovery period risked a greater chance of the bends.

If this was an emergency ascent then yes by all means, but for standard practice no.



Theoretically you do not need full breath at 100' to get enough oxygen in your lungs to sustain you. Assuming a normal rate of breathing.
Thanks, yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks for the cautions, I am aware. It would be an interesting experiment if a trained diver were to do this (with adequate safety) and monitor HR the entire time. Apnea is part of mamalian dive response, but chest compression has been shown be a strong trigger as well. Breathing even tiny sips of air at depth would likely interrupt dive response to some degree.. or not? It would take a trained diver who was comfortable with being at residual volume and who has a very highly trained CO2 tolerance, etc, and probably they'd need to do a full scuba deco using very conservative tables, etc.. I wouldn't doubt that the Navy has done stuff like that.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:59 PM   #22
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

Holy overcomplicate it.... go down, get stuck fish out of hole and GTFO.

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Old 01-05-2014, 01:48 PM   #23
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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The ascent was filmed in real time. You can see how long it takes to ascend...
So, you had 3 minutes in 60' of water and came up with a half empty tank with no safety stop. And that is in a relaxed, controlled, non-emergency (i.e. no panic) situation...

What about people who are diving a 100-120' and are coming up on a deco obligation? I don't think you really "proved" much of anything, except that you would probably be running pretty low on air if it was a "real" dive where it was deeper, probably had increased heart rate, and wanted to do a safety stop...
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:54 PM   #24
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

You guys can speculate all you want, but what are the chances that someone will actually remember to "breathe normally" through a regulator, and ascend at a slow rate, if they have been freediving all day and never really do much scuba? I could be wrong, but I don't think you need to be down that long at all to get air embolism if you hold your breath on the ascent.

Furthermore, freediving is all about being stream lined in the water. If you are planning on taking a pony bottle to "bail out", that tells me two things: 1) You aren't as stream lined as you could be and 2) If you get yourself into "bail out" mode, then you were probably pushing beyond your limits anyway which is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:18 AM   #25
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

It has taken me about 2:30 minutes at 100ft to remove tangled fish with scooter.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:28 PM   #26
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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It has taken me about 2:30 minutes at 100ft to remove tangled fish with scooter.
Me too... (with a tank)
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:20 AM   #27
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

jfjf,

Im glad you make lots of videos. I really enjoy them. I plan on getting back to making videos in the future.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:10 PM   #28
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

So,

I freedive spearfish only, but I carry scuba on the boat for deep fish retrieval. I have a 40cu ft scuba tank, backpack, and a 1980's scubapro MK5 regulator with pressure gauge. I used it only one time this year, retrieving a badly tangled cuda. Doesn't take much of a screw up to get in trouble at 80ft untangling a fish.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:12 PM   #29
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

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jfjf,

Im glad you make lots of videos. I really enjoy them. I plan on getting back to making videos in the future.
Thanks Harry!

I want to see some new videos of yours too.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:03 PM   #30
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Re: Pony Bottle Use for EMERGENCIES while FREEDIVING?

jfjf

How much time do you get on a 40 around 3atm? I've never sucked a tank dry at that depth, I always do 1/3 then finish of around 40'. The thought of blowing bottom time on scuba at 100' has always pushed me shallower towards the end of a dive.
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